Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Raph Graybill


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Spartaz Humbug! 11:00, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Raph Graybill

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Notability concerns. Doesn't meet WP:NPOL. Having a marriage announcement in the NYTimes isn't a good sign of notability. All the other independent sources are about the race for attorney general. Redirect to the article on the political race reverted. power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 07:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 07:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Montana-related deletion discussions. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 07:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete non-notable attorney and candidate, we can restore if he wins the election, otherwise reads like a Linkedin page. SportingFlyer  T · C  11:29, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fails WP:NPOL now; would probably fail WP:NPOL if he wins the election; I doubt that Attorney General of Montana (which now redirects to Montana Department of Justice) is sufficient for NPOL purposes. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 13:36, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect back to 2020 Montana elections.. While I created the original redirect, it was not my idea to start the article before the election. As of now, he is not notable for being a candidate for a state-level office. He also isn't covered by the "Tantamount to election" argument, which has saved many primary candidates this election cycle, as his election in November is far from a sure thing. KidAd   talk  21:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. See notes below:
 * Does meet notability requirements in his appointed position as the Chief Legal Counsel of the MT Executive Branch. This is the highest level appointed attorney position in MT and his actions in this role are notable (advocacy litigation and constitutional defense that is more typical of an activist attorney general). I added multiple sources that are from before Graybill filed for office to show that the press coverage does not relate to the Attorney General run and show that his notability is first and foremost as an attorney & for his role as the top appointed attorney in the state. Numerous important cases before the US Supreme court & MT Supreme court.
 * (Beyond the current AG election there is press coverage for a political election he did win so I added that (notable for his age (youngest delegate), not just the fact that he won - hence the press). He has also received significant press as a scholar / in academics. The current MT AG race is significant and, thus far, Graybill did win primary, but I understand that that alone would not meet the notability requirements).


 * But again the primary qualification for meeting the notability requirements has to do with hist top level appointed government position of Chief Legal Counsel (+legal actions taken in this role). As another wikipedia article (Joe Jacquot) states about this role: "top lawyer for state agencies in the Administration overseeing litigation, rulemaking and other legal matters. Additionally ... serves as the Governor's advisor on judicial appointments.


 * Per Wikipedia guidelines:
 * "Elected and appointed political figures at the national cabinet level are generally regarded as notable, as are usually those at the major sub-national level (US state, Canadian province, Japanese prefecture, etc.) in countries where executive and/or legislative power is devolved to bodies at that level. See WP:POLITICIAN." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Common_outcomes#Politicians


 * Here are some examples of people in similar or lower positions that have standalone wikipedia articles:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Alan_Stutz
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denise_Smyler
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Nordby
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_F._Ward
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_S._Aichele
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Jacquot


 * "On Wikipedia, the general inclusion threshold is whether the subject is notable enough for at least two people to have written something substantive (more than just a mention) about that subject that has been published in a reliable source." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:My_article_got_nominated_for_deletion! "Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extracting_the_meaning_of_significant_coverage


 * I agree with the argument that the NYT wedding announcement does not relate to notability. I think another editor put that in as a source for full birth name (was not intended as a source used to show 'notability'). I have deleted the NYT wedding announcement as a source and replaced with another source that also shows his full birth name.


 * I also addressed other citation/source issues, making sure that there are substantial sources that have nothing to do with the political race and show notability as a lawyer, particularly the chief lawyer of the executive branch.


 * As for AleatoryPonderings' argument that Attorney General of MT wouldn't even meet the notability standards, that is not correct. It does not matter that there is no article for "MT Attorney general". The Attorney General runs the DOJ, and then each Attorney General has their own wikipedia article. The current Attorney General of MT (and I am sure all other states considering it is one most powerful elected positions in the state) has his own wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Fox_(politician) . In a related example, there is no "Montana Governor" wikipedia article, but that doesn't mean the Governor does not meet the notability requirements, instead there is a list of past governors and then there are standalone articles for each individual governor (for example, Steve Bullock has his own article) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montanan406 (talk • contribs) 21:36, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * We have standards that people who are only notable for being candidates aren't notable enough for their own Wikipedia article, which seems to be the case here. I do think he would probably be notable if he were elected, but WP:CRYSTAL. SportingFlyer  T · C  21:45, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand there are standards for candidates aren't notable enough for their own Wikipedia article, but that is not the case here since the notability is not as a candidate (see new source material on wikipedia article). The reason Graybill is notable is for being in the highest appointed attorney in the state and for landmark case law in front of the US & Montana Supreme Court. This definitely meets the standard of a high level appointed position at the state level that are considered notable Montanan406  T · C  —Preceding undated comment added 03:20, 19 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment To be consistent with other positions I have taken, this should be redirected to 2020 Montana Attorney General election as a usual and appropriate outcome under WP:NPOL and WP:POLOUTCOMES. My position is not bolded because with now 14 days until the election, and notwithstanding concerns about Wikipedia being a repository of campaign brochures, I think we should refrain from deleting subjects within the last few days before an election when they might become elected to a position that confers the presumption of notability. --Enos733 (talk) 05:38, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per my usual standards for lawyers: Rhodes Scholar, clerk to a famous court, counsel to a governor, DNC member, and argued several SCOTUS cases. As a politician, I would redirect this article as suggested. Bearian (talk) 20:50, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Graybill serves as the current Chief Legal Counsel to Governor Bullock in Montana. Not only is this a notable position in its own right, it is critically important right now as the state responds to the Covid-19 pandemic.  From his position in the Governor’s office, Graybill plays a significant role in enforcement of state mandates.  Considering the constant revisions to state-wide rules and fluctuations in enforcement, there’s currently an overriding public interest in having transparency into state government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whawes444 (talk • contribs)  — Whawes444 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment That is a good point- He is heading up legal enforcement for the Governor's covid directive. There has been a recent surge in cases in the state and enforcement related actions. Sorry I have been a bit busy and am slow with Wikipedia editing. I will look up some sources and add a new section because this is very significant/important right now. Montanan406  T · C  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.58.44.237 (talk) 23:30, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep. Agree with Bearian that Graybill's judicial activity in the upper echelons of state government is sufficient grounds for notability, even though the political candidacy by itself isn't. Sjakkalle (Check!)  19:40, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 07:42, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Meets GNG. Has a fairly important role in Montana's government, especially with regards to the response to Covid. ~ EDDY  ( talk / contribs )~ 21:38, 28 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.