Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Razhel Gee Mengullo (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Spartaz Humbug! 04:29, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Razhel Gee Mengullo

 * – ( View AfD View log )

This article is on a non-notable junior karate competitor. I can't access the references from the local paper (which is still insufficient to show WP:N) and the other references either don't mention her or fail to show notability. This article was deleted at AfD last year (as Razhel Mengullo) and then recreated under its current name. It survived another AfD nomination as a "no consensus" because of a number of "keep" votes from people associated with her school. Papaursa (talk) 20:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions.  —Papaursa (talk) 20:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:17, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: The article under discussion here has been flagged for rescue by the Article Rescue Squadron. jjska®ate  空手| 道®   08:39, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: The first AFD Articles for deletion/Razhel Gee Mengullo jmcw (talk) 15:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notable karatedo practitioner in the country. Won many major tournaments including Philippine Olympic Festival and Philippine Karatedo Federation National Open, the highest karatedo competition in the country. jjska®ate 空手| 道®   01:24, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Were these senior competitions or did she win junior age division titles? The Olympic Festival is not the same as tryouts for the Olympic team, correct? Papaursa (talk) 01:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Athletes are not born professional; others maybe gifted but some are made champions step by step due to constant training and discipline. jjska®ate 空手| 道®   02:14, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: It would be very unfair in wikipedia if it will only recognized professional athletes and olympic sportsmen. We should also consider the performance or level of competition of every athletes. Professional or not; olympic sports or non-olympic sport event. There are number of athletes that are performing well from school base, regional up to national level tournament. National tournament of USA would be very far behind compared to any "3rd World Countries" national games.DamakDamak (talk) 04:13, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep - Meets guidelines for notability by participating and won medals in the national level competitions. Accomplished athlete in her early age. Very promising fighter, we should give credit for her achievements. 1 Hoy! Pinoy ako.  01:58, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep and develop (the article). Notable athlete, meet WP:ATHLETE criteria and keep on winning in her chosen sports.&mdash; MMaAsia  Sambon Hajime!!  03:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. Sufficient in form and in substance. Clearly a notable karate practitioner and a national champion.DamakDamak (talk) 08:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete I am not convinced that the competitions that she won are sufficient to establish notability. That she is now a freshman at university, all these competitions must be junior age tournaments. I counsel the closing admin to look over the edit histories of all the participants of this AFD. jmcw (talk) 11:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * From this reference, in 2009 she was competing in the 10 to 11 year old girls kumite. Not notable for Wikipedia: please keep to the school blog. jmcw (talk) 13:06, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: High school and pre-high school athletes are notable if they have received, as individuals, substantial and prolonged coverage that is (1) independent of the subject and (2) clearly goes beyond WP:ROUTINE coverage. jjska®ate 空手| 道®   01:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:ATH says "Sports figures are presumed notable if they have participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level such as the Olympics." It also says "local coverage in both news sources and sports specific publications" are excluded because that coverage is considered routine. Papaursa (talk) 01:33, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Suggestion: move to WikiPilipinas. jmcw (talk) 15:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Already there. jmcw (talk) 15:05, 14 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep seems notable and the subject is leading to a potential article. Winning in the national level championship is also an advantage to show notability. PulisPatola (talk) 02:30, 14 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete: fails WP:NSPORTS, as has not "participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level such as the Olympics." Appropriate standard for Karate would appear to be the Senior Karate World Championships. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 11:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * For now, karate is not an olympic sporting event and there are numbers of major karate competitions climbing up in the national level is already far an achievement. National winner athletes deserved notability. 1  Hoy! Pinoy ako.  00:53, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Read the guideline -- "major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level" -- "national level" competitions are clearly not applicable. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 02:27, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete Subject clearly fails WP:ATH. I also looked at her education awards and the references are 50 page lists of names--hardly exceptional or unique.  The editor who said this is "leading to a potential article" might want to look at WP:CRYSTAL. 131.118.229.17 (talk) 16:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What I'm trying to emphasized is that, the article is gaining credits to pass the standard of wikipedia based on the achievements of the athlete in the national arena.PulisPatola (talk) 08:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That's the point--if you're notable you can have an article, the criteria is not that you might be notable someday. Astudent0 (talk) 14:36, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep Its notable enough to get ample coverage in the news. This is apparently something major in that country.  And this is a national competition.  We're not talking about local small town papers listing who won the T-ball tournament.   D r e a m Focus  21:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The Philipines have 4 cities with populations of over a million, but the only sources are from a local paper? Logically that means either the event isn't "major in that country" or there are so many divisions they couldn't list all the winners.  Either way I don't see the notability or how she passes WP:ATH. 131.118.229.17 (talk) 23:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The population in the Philippines today is more than 90 millions with 7100+ islands and to be included and won in the national level competition really speaks of a very satisfactory performance. PKF National Open Championship is a major event of karatedo in the country. 1 Hoy! Pinoy ako.  00:39, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Neither underbelts nor juniors are usually considered notable and she's both. When she successfully competes at the highest level (which means nationally and internationally as an adult blackbelt), then she deserves an article. Astudent0 (talk) 14:36, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: The country is divided in 3 areas, the Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao. To be chosen in hundreds of sports athletes to be the "teamplate holder" of Visayas Delegation really an advantage compared to other athletes joining the Philippine Olympic Festival, a major national competition. 1  Hoy! Pinoy ako.  01:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * For the record: PKF is a regular National Sports Association member of Philippine Olympic Committee with affiliations to IOC, OCA, SEAGF. jjska®ate 空手| 道®   02:25, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep Subject clearly meets WP:ATH by winning several national tournaments in her country.122.55.22.253 (talk) 03:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong and Speedy Keep. A three-time national winner is definitely notable. This article stayed in wikipedia for more than a year and for sure it won't last a week or two if it doesn't pass the notability. We're talking about national champion athlete here and not an intramural MVP.  空手道®   "avec les mains ou les pieds" 06:34, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, many articles are tagged for questionable notability for years and we're talking about a junior age group underbelt competitor here, not a champion who defeated all comers regardless of rank or age. Jakejr (talk) 00:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment I notice that almost all of the keep votes are either new editors or connected with her karate school (JJS).
 * Delete I looked at the dates and pictures in her article. Her first "championship" was in 2006 when she was about 8 competing with orange and green belts (i.e., beginners).  I see no way that winning an 8 year old beginners division makes you worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia.  I see nothing that shows she meets the standards of WP:ATH--competing at the top level. Astudent0 (talk) 14:36, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete - Coverage of school sports in local papers does not establish notability under general notability criteria, nor under notability for athletes. With respect to her winning competitions, these are not the highest level of competition in her sport so they do not meet the criteria as set out in notability for athletes. -- Whpq (talk) 18:57, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Meets every Wikipedia standard for sourcing. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:25, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The biggest issue isn't sourcing, it's notability. Can you show how she meets WP:ATH (competing at the highest level) by winning child underbelt divisions? Papaursa (talk) 13:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete. Does not appear to satisfy notability requirements. I attempted to access all 22 on-line references listed in the article (there is also one printed reference that I do not have access to). Regrettably, most of them appear to be unavailable for technical reasons, but the ones that were accessible only mention the subject in a passing manner or do not mention her at all. Looking at the actual article names of the references, this is the only one that appears to be specifically on the subject (and it is currently returning a 404 error). It would seem that almost all of the references provided do not focus on the subject herself, but I stand open to correction if the sources do become available again and prove otherwise. Turning to the article itself, I do not see anything there that indicates the subject is notable within the context of martial arts articles on Wikipedia. Incidentally, I notice that this appears to be the second nomination for deletion of this article; for those who are interested, here is the discussion on the first one: Articles for deletion/Razhel Gee Mengullo (July/August 2009). Janggeom (talk) 13:05, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Following the nominator's introductory comments, here is the other earlier discussion: Articles for deletion/Razhel Mengullo (January 2009). Janggeom (talk) 13:18, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This might also be of relevance or assistance in this discussion: Articles for deletion/Mengullo, Randy (February 2009). Janggeom (talk) 13:28, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete Subject does not meet the notability requirements in WP:ATH. I don't know how much precedent and consistency matter on WP, but I did see that the articles on both the World and European Junior Judo Championships were recently deleted at AfD, and if those don't meet notability standards because they're junior events, I see no way that local or even national junior underbelt events or competitors are notable.  If this article is deleted, I also recommend (like so many did at that the previous nomination) that the closing administrator Salt it before it comes back as "Razhel G. Mengullo" or some other variation. Jakejr (talk) 13:34, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete Clearly this person has not participated in major senior competitions of the kind set out in WP:ATH. DreamFocus's is the only keep vote that seems to get anywhere near the mark here, by referring the sources and a potential WP:GNG claim. However given the raft of deadlinks that constitute references to the article, it is very difficult to assess. I agree with Janggeom that the titles of the articles tend to give away the fact that the sources do not devote significant coverage to the subject of the article. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:52, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.