Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/RedSpotGames (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  19:41, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

RedSpotGames
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails WP:NCORP because it hasn't been the subject of significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. Big effort here to make it notable, but it is not. What follows now is my WP:BEFORE of 2 AfDs, searches and references in the article.
 * 1.- Passing mention of their website
 * 2.- "It's coming to Europe from publisher Redspot Games" is not WP:SIGCOV. The rest of the article is directly about the game.
 * 3.- "If the kids at Redspotgames have their way, they'll keep publishing games for the venerable (and defunct) console -- that is, according to marketing and sales director Adrian Loudero" is all there is to it, plus it relies on a citation from what the member from this studio has said. Not independent.
 * 4.- Passing mention by a name drop.
 * 5.- Does not mention the subject.
 * 6.- "What began as an exercise in game coding has become a commercial release thanks to German publisher redspotgames" which is a passing mention.
 * 7.- "RedSpotGames seems to have missed the memo that the Dreamcast is dead, and will be announcing two new games for the system at the Games Convention in Leipzig." One sentence is not WP:SIGCOV.
 * 8.- "A new Dreamcast game has been revealed by German-based developer Redspot Games." Same as 7.
 * 9.- "Munich-based publisher Redspotgames (Solar Struggle for XBLA, Last Hope) has announced Sturmwind." WP:ROUTINE announcement of the game release, plus not WP:SIGCOV.
 * 10.- "Munich-based publisher Redspotgames released the first trailer for Sturmwind", same as above.
 * 11. Mentioned twice by name, but nothing about it itself.
 * 12. and Unreliable blogs.
 * 13. and Press releases, not independent of the subject.
 * 14.,, - Not related to the subject.
 * 15. and Just an official website.
 * 16.- Retail store link for one of the games.
 * 17.-Unreliable blog plus the subject isn't mentioned.
 * 18.- Another unreliable blog, and a passing mention of the subject.
 * 19. Unreliable forum.
 * 20.. Probably the best of the bunch. "After releasing several titles on the now-defunct console over the past few years, the company apparently has plans to bring even more games to the Dreamcast. The company only sells a few thousand copies of its Dreamcast releases, according to Loudero. Since it can’t rely entirely on Dreamcast aficionados alone for its business, it has recently started developing WiiWare and Xbox Live Arcade titles." along with citations and such. May not meet WP:CORPDEPTH though, but it's close. It's not going in-depth regarding the company here.
 * 21.- "Redspotgames only sells a few thousand copies of their Dreamcast game releases, but at least someone is keeping the...dream alive.". Not WP:SIGCOV.
 * 22., - Passing mention or not at all.
 * 23.- Passing mention.
 * 24.- Not mentioned.
 * 25. and Founded by the same person who founded this subject plus unreliable plus passing mention.
 * 26. Official website Jovanmilic97 (talk) 16:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 16:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 16:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * When an article is mentioning them while discussing a game they are publishing is as notable as a publisher should get. As their entire function was publishing games. I think the article should be revised to reflect the company no longer exists and should acknowledge the legacy left behind. Their are also numerous German television appearances Max Scharl made that can be found on YouTube. Basically a lot of references exist out there. I have just grown out of archiving video game history phase of my life. Sharing this in a thread for videogame articles that need improvement would be a better way to go. I'll watch this discussion and maybe I can try to improve this article but I really feel someone else should have a go at it. It would be unfortunate if RSG's efforts are wiped out of existence.--Cube b3 (talk) 17:35, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * There is a big problem here called WP:NOTINHERITED, whereas notability is not inherited from things they are involved with it nor people who founded it. I wouldn't mind an article on Max Schnarl to reflect on RedSpot and websites he founded as well. But studio as a separate entity is not notable. I totally get your improvement idea though and I appreciate that view! Jovanmilic97 (talk) 18:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I skimmed through the WP Not Inherited. What I am saying is that a publisher is notable by how much they can do for the product, they are selling. When the publisher gets the spotlight, it is usually on something controversial such as the continued delays of Sturmwind and numerous people complaining about delayed shipment and orders broken during shipment. It was quite a racket back in the day, that would be ref #27 which in turn is referencing to customers bombarding RSG facebook page.
 * I am fascinated by your suggestion of a Max Scharl page because in many ways RSG was Max Scharl but we are still working with the same article.

Lastly, we also have a massive issue of references disappearing. Specifically in terms of Feet of Fury. Dreamcast-Petition had numerous scans about magazine articles from magazines such as German GamePro discussing their efforts to release the game. But they are gone now... If a company no longer exists their notability today creates a problem for notability yesterday. This is just me thinking about the Max Scharl article because he was doing other things before Dreamcast publication he was an editor in chief for some German gaming website... please do advise?--Cube b3 (talk) 15:27, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete Spam for a non notable business bombarded with passing mentions, PR and non reliable sources. duffbeerforme (talk) 03:25, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Added a reference from Kotaku: Ashcraft, Brian (8 August 2010). "Dreamcast Will Not Die". Kotaku. Retrieved 16 June 2019. https://kotaku.com/the-dreamcast-will-not-die-5621234. It is more than a passing reference and in this context the website is reliable. I also found another one via Kotaku https://kotaku.com/if-the-dreamcast-is-dead-dont-tell-these-guys-5801533.
 * Haven't added this into the article. But the reference is from Gamasutra: https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134745/keeping_the_dream_alive_the_men_.php?page=3. It is a 3 page article referencing the entire indie history of Dreamcast with a big focus on Redspotgames. The company no longer exists, but from 2003 - 2013. Redspotgames/Max Scharl did great work. If we find Sega and Dreamcast notable. Than it is a notable part of it's history. We have dozens of Japanese games and publishers on Wikipedia which are less notable than Redspotgames from a historical perspective.
 * Again, I am no longer in my twenty's or an avid gamer. I don't spend as much time on this platform, I would really appreciate a bit of co-operation and team work to improve this article, as I don't have the time to do it all by myself.--Cube b3 (talk) 04:20, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Hey! I have fixed the indentations in your vote because it was unreadable, now it looks a lot better. I don't think RedSpotGames is notable here games history wise. From my understanding, they tried to to release games again for Dreamcast, had financial losses from that, tried to expand to other consoles, and when that also failed, they closed and filed for bankrupcy. Now my analysis of your references:
 * 1. Quoting the article: "At the recent Gamescom convention in Cologne, Germany, developer RedSpotGames had Dreamcast demo kiosks placed proudly between the Xbox 360 and the Wii demo kiosks. RedSpotGames has published Wind and Water: Puzzle Battles, a puzzle game developed by a Costa Rica-based studio, in 2008 and Rush Rush Rally Racing, a top down racer, last fall." Two sentences are not WP:SIGCOV, as this article does not address the company "in detail". It is not just a passing mention, correct, but not something that can contribute towards WP:GNG.
 * 2. The second Kotaku reference you found, I did too. For one, it is quoting the Gamasutra reference that you posted. And for two, "But Redspotgames continued to support Dreamcast after Sega no longer did. In 2007, Germany's Redspotgames released its first DC game, shoot 'em up Last Hope." Literally the same case as with the first Kotaku source. There is also a quotation from Max Schnarl, but that is not WP:INDEPENDENT as "An independent source is a source that has no vested interest in a given Wikipedia topic". Max Schnarl certainly does.
 * 3. OK, this is good. By miles the best and the only source out of 30+ I checked out regarding this subject that I find it passing WP:CORPDEPTH. But it needs more than just that one WP:SIGCOV source. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 15:48, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * *Reply Thank you for your input. I have not added the Gamasutra ref to the article yet, you can look at this one reference as one reliable references validating all the other references. I am joking. What about Max Scharl's two televised appearances. They weren't commercials.
 * On your summary - This is how I'd summarize my article.
 * A German Sega journalist starts a petition site for more games on Dreamcast. Convinces American and Japanese devs to release more games that he distributed in Germany and beyond via Lik-Sang. The petition site evolves into a fan site and then spawns an indie publisher. Profitability isn't really a variable, as it is done for sentimental reasons as acknowledged in the gamasutra article. However, it is also shared that all published games sold more than preceding ones. Furthermore, the wiiware port of Rush Rush Rally Racing debuted on number 1 on Wiiware charts. I can find that reference. The game was also a sponsor of racing events (I am not into formula 1 but I assume that's notable as the driver was serving as brand ambassador similar to Danica Patrick for GoDaddy). The company ran into manufacturing problems and went radio silent. Two years later Sturmwind was controversially released as the shipping was horribly slow and collector boxes were being damaged in shipping (I don't think I have added those references)... and then the company just went dark.
 * I've not even been able to reach Max since 2011, however, I contacted and spoke with all the developers who were partnered with RSG. So I do have some insights as to what happened behind the scene. This article is also tagged as being written by someone with a close link to the subject. But all the sentences have external references, as no notable site covered it so the story is kind of left incomplete outside the one reference that Hucast helped distribute the game.
 * Your original suggestion was to make a Max Scharl article instead, but we are dealing with the same reference problems. Back in the day, I had made articles for Goat Store Publishing, NG DEV TEAM and Hucast Games. All indie publishers from my day. Hucast games even though they went on to develop for PS4 has been radio silent for years and their domain name has expired (again)...
 * There is a history here, and a story that I found cool enough and worthy of Wikipedia. It was basically the independent Dreamcast diaries. If you are familiar with the machine, the console since release due to being able to boot from CD-R was a huge milestone for all forms of independent development. It's legacy is huge but without a reliable institution like Wikipedia the history will cease to exist. Back in the day we had websites, magazines. Most of the publications that cared about those things no longer exist. I apologize for the tangent. I hope we can continue this discussion and reach an amicable solution. Thank you for reading.--Cube b3 (talk) 23:55, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * P.S. Back in the day if an article was nominated for deletion I would go to Dreamcast-Scene or DC Emulation and share that so I could get assistance from the community to help with the article and the discussion but that is canvassing and apparently wrong. I would like to think that I have learned, but truthfully those sites are now dead. I never understood why people who care about a subject, can't write about the subject. I mean this is a hobby right? So I'd write about stuff I can actually enjoy and take pride in...--Cube b3 (talk) 00:02, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 08:39, 19 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete as a non-notable video game developer failing WP:GNG (WP:NCORP) with no multiple (reliable independent) in-depth sources, such as WP:VG/RS. To avoid repeating, I defer to Jovanmilic97 for their (excellent) source review. In short, the article is WP:REFBOMBed with sources that do not satisfy WP:GNG, except arguably the Gamasutra WP:INTERVIEW. A few of the others provide some good sourceable material, but are not in-depth sources about the subject itself for GNG. Having developed notable video games or worked on a notable console is WP:NOTINHERITED. Previous AfDs and above !keep seems to hinge on NOTINHERITED and an interpretation of what "notable" means in a way that is not how it is used on Wikipedia. Other arguments like WP:INTERESTING and WP:USEFUL aren't even close to GNG requirements. Reliable sources simply haven't done any significant coverage of the company itself, only passing mentions. May be some of the sourced Dreamcast-related content can be merged to Dreamcast or legacy or some such. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 08:51, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment The Gamasutra reference hasn't been added yet. It also has no new information. It basically a more reliable source reaffirming the other references. As you can see I've been trying to discuss alternatives with Jovanmilic. I don't think this fits into decline, a case for legacy could be made. We used to have a weird entry called List of commercially released independently developed Dreamcast games. It has now been merged with homebrew, which these games aren't because Redspotgames, NG DEV TEAM, Hucast, and Goat Store Publishing were releasing indie games. It does fit into legacy for sure, but the content is to much to be crammed into a section. It needs it's own page. Maybe Dreamcast Indie Games, Dreamcast Indie Developers... It would offer a nice redirect to all my deleted pages. That said, I really felt once Redspotgames made it on national TV notability had been forever established... It wasn't a commercial, the publisher was given a platform. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-XRNuVFKiE and it happened again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUMmcNacUkw--Cube b3 (talk) 16:32, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment The problem is that it wasn't the publisher that was the subject of those interviews, but Sturmwind was (which is obviously notable). Again, WP:NOTINHERITED. Also, I would really ask you to not WP:BLUDGEON (as you are the creator of this article) this AfD. I appreciate that you are passionate for this, but there is no need for so much text that could have been condensed into few sentences. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 16:58, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 14:02, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Please review the transcript of the televised interview, an English translation is in the video description. The main subject was not Sturmwind, it was being an underdog in the world of publishing.--Cube b3 (talk) 18:17, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:INTERVIEW. They aren't considered secondary sources (since the whole thing comes from the people connected to it. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 18:53, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, but context matters. The reference in line is used to establish notability that the publisher was invited on a German TV show to unveil Sturmwind but in addition to that, they had a discussion about the publisher in contrast to Apple. I also realized that the second televised feature isn't in the article and this one is much longer as they have a pre-recorded feature on Dreamcast games and the redspotgames work before going live and playing Sturmwind with Max. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUMmcNacUkw--Cube b3 (talk) 16:07, 3 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete I agree with the excellent analysis provided by . None of the references meet the criteria for establishing notability (largely failing a combination of WP:ORGIND and WP:CORPDEPTH). Topic fails GNG and WP:NCORP.  HighKing++ 16:33, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete This is a publisher for notable games, but no significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject and we need this for a Wikipedia article. Charmk (talk) 11:34, 4 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.