Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Red Lake High School

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was keep. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 01:48, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

Red Lake High School
Another non-notable high school. Don't be fooled. Just because some kid killed some people dosen't make the school notable. Otherwise any kid could come and commit a crime to get their school in the encyclopedia. School deletionist 11:29, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Note: The article focus has changed dramatically since this nomination was made - please see the current vote at Talk:Red Lake High School massacre to decide the existence and content of the three articles.


 * While I'm not necessarily in favor of school articles, this nomination seems to be in bad faith because of the tone and the username. The nominator may well be a sockpuppet given his lack of any other edits. Abstain. Radiant_* 11:37, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Saopaulo1 11:42, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Clearly a bad faith nomination. I think the incident should have its own article, tho. --Conti|✉ 11:43, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, of course, this is news Wouter Lievens 11:45, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to wikinews and come back when we can be sure it is in fact notable. Mgm|(talk) 11:57, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Ahem! Wikinews had Ten dead on Minnesota Indian reservation after school shooting several hours before Wikipedia had Red Lake High School massacre and only a handful of hours after the creation of this article. Uncle G 19:01, 2005 Mar 22 (UTC)
 * Concur with MacGyver. Wikinews. Also the article's name is wrong, as the content is about the shooting. Radiant_* 12:04, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, I think it should have it's own article, it is a location very much like Columbine which got it's own article, and people should be reminded what happened at Red Lake Foxcek 12:06, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep or Redirect, but I think redirecting would be a better solution; maybe to something like 2005 Red Lake shooting. -Frazzydee|✍ 12:27, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - major news item that is encyclopedic. The naming is not the issue here and should be covered on the talk page under the guidance of WP:RM, as is happening currently. violet/riga (t) 12:29, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - This VFD is trolling. --mav 13:00, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - This is news. The title should be Red Lake High School Shooting. I'm sure the general public will refer to it that way after the media has a field day with this story. -Wjbean 13:06, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep It's a school. Wincoote 13:08, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Er, Wincoote, you should read the article before voting. It's not about a school, it's about a shooting incident. Radiant_* 14:54, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Red Lake High School is a school, but the article hasn't been rounded out yet. Wincoote
 * Keep. Seems reasonable to test whether the article belongs by listing it on VfD, but this school does belong. The shooting has rendered it notable. &mdash; Trilobite (Talk) 15:07, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * What makes it "reasonable to test whether the article belongs by listing it on VfD"? --GRider\talk 18:21, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. [[Image:No-Troll.png|15px]] &mdash;Korath (Talk) 16:10, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Moves and/or creation of redirects may well be appropriate and can be done by anyone at any time; moves should probably be discussed first in Talk:Red Lake High School. Thank goodness, school shooting incidents like this are currently rare enough to be notable. I hope I will not see a day when people are saying "just a school massacre like thousands of others." I have to wonder whether the nominator, who has a brand new account, is a sockpuppet of some experienced Wikipedian who is disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:18, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete because now there is a separate article, Red Lake High School massacre, about the shooting. The article under consideration here (which for some reason doesn't have a VFD message at the top) is just about the school, which is not in and of itself notable. --Angr 17:35, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notable because of the shooting. Note that Wikipedia has articles for both Columbine High School and Columbine High School massacre. DaveTheRed 17:38, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. This school has become notable due to the shooting similar to Columbine. I am sure that more can be said especially given that most of the students are from the Chippawa tribe. By the way, the vfd notice isn't on the page. Capitalistroadster 17:44, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge shooting content into Red Lake High School massacre and school info into Red Lake, Minnesota and redirect to the newly created Red Lake High School massacre. The shooting did not occur because of the school as far as I can tell, and is not notable in and of itself.  People don't try to argue that every convenience store shooting requires the store to have its own article and I don't see why this should change for schools.  -   Banyan Tree  17:55, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * The school is not notable in its own to have its own article. Merge into Red Lake High School massacre and redirect -- Jwinters | Talk 18:02, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * To further my point, look at the history of the Red Lake High School page. The page did not even exist before the shootings.
 * If Wikipedia had existed in the 1990's, do you think Columbine High School would've had an article before April 1999? Saopaulo1 21:29, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, not just because of the shooting, but because high schools are significant enough to merit their own articles. - Seth Ilys 18:12, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep . Keep or redirect to Red Lake High School massacre. --Edcolins 18:41, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Gamaliel 19:19, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep High schools and notable shooting incidents. Kappa 19:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. --EisenKnoechel 21:03, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. I created this page when the first headlines came on CNN and before the extent of the shooting was known and it had been dubbed a massacre. But merge massacre content to it's own article. School's that has been the scene of this kind of event are indeed notable. Just a little sad that the massacre page history won't reflect how fast we had a article on the subject.. But that's just me being a glory hog Preisler 21:34, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. All public institutions are notable. I suspect this is probably a vexatious nomination to prove a point, and as such it's invalid anyway.--Gene_poole 22:21, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Most school articles are non notable and should be deleted, but this is obviously not one of them.  RickK 22:32, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. If we delete Red Lake High School we, as wikipedian, should eliminate Columbine High School article, because in both High Schools it happened a practically same event. --pjv_b 19:12, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * The terrible recent events justify this article, keep--nixie 23:55, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Moncrief 00:00, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep for excellent reasons stated. - Lucky 6.9 02:07, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. This high school and Columbine High School are both not noteworthy. The Columbine High School's "famous" alumni mentioned in the article: "country songwriter/artist Skip Ewing, melancholy pop band Big Head Todd and the Monsters (all three members), and 1988 Olympic Gold Medalist Melanie Palenik" don't even have an article yet. The last paragraph "the order Columbiformes includes the 308 species of doves" is also a joke. A high school is a high school. Unless it actually becomes something such as an elite high school, it's no more than a human butcher shop. Is there an article dealing with the garage at 2122 N. Clark Street, Chicago? Certainly not. Just because some people were killed over there on February 14, 1929, does not earn that lousy garage an article in an encyclopedia. -- Toytoy 06:55, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * See St. Valentine's Day Massacre for the article supposedly missing. Last edition on February 28, 2005. Pablo.cl 13:14, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * No, I mean there's no article about that particular garage (just a building) in a way similar to the White House (the building) and the War of 1812 (a historical incident that damaged that building) -- Toytoy 13:30, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * When I realized my mistake you already had answered. Pablo.cl 18:49, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect. Gazpacho 07:32, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Keep. Now the article is about the school, and only has a brief mention of the massacre. Pablo.cl 13:08, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * The information is possibly copied from the school website. It's legal, but useless in an encyclopedia. What do you want to know about a school? Its history? Its policy? Its people? That article has nearly nothing to justify its existance. One thing that tells Harvard University from the official http://www.harvard.edu/ website is our article has some original and interesting information in it. OK, even if someone has written something about that school, how do we check the fact? How many students of that school are writing for Wikipedia? Can they write anything that's useful to an outsider? Winston Churchill was a great man. I don't think we need an article for his family. No one cares about his uncle. -- Toytoy 02:03, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

Keep, obviously. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 09:31, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. The shooting has made it notable but it needs to be expanded. I don't think Columbine High School should be deleted either, especially because it features in Bowling for Columbine. It is far too early to delete, besides who knows maybe later in the year Michael Moore will make a movie about Red Lake. -- Lochaber 13:27, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * On June 28, 1914, Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria was assassinated in Sarajevo in a car. The car does not have an article. The bullet that killed him is stored as a museum exhibit in Czech Republic. It also does not have an article. Neither do the car, bullets, blood-stained shirt and other things involved in the JFK assassination have an article of their own. That high school is just a faceless high school. It does not have a story of its own. Even if it has some, we are not interested in them (other than the massacre). That school is not a place for you to visit. If we need its information (who?), we visit its website (place it as an external link in the massacre article) for the latest information. Otherwise, just another useless high school article does not enrich this encyclopedia in any way. Beslan school hostage crisis occured about six months ago, do you care about that Beslan Middle School Number One? Sorry, it's still a dead link. The Michael Moore movie is irrelevant. Several McDonald's appeared in Supersize Me, none of them deserves any article. -- Toytoy 02:03, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not paper. Moncrief 03:29, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is also not an information landfill. There's an article for Suzanne Vega, a famous female singer; another for "Tom's Diner", one of her greatest songs. I don't see the need of an article for that diner (Tom's Restaurant) on the corner of Broadway and 112th Street in New York City even though that diner also appeared in Seinfeld. -- Toytoy 01:49, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, WP:POINT. Obviously nominated by a disgruntled ultra-inclusionist (probably GRider). Binadot 04:17, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. WP:POINT Jayjg (talk) 19:52, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. James F. (talk) 00:00, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep School massacres are fortunately not all that common. PatGallacher 17:53, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)
 * Keep and allow for organic growth. --GRider\talk 18:21, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Sarge Baldy 21:10, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep way above the notability bar.  ALKIVAR ™ 21:14, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Others have noted why. --Dittaeva 21:33, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment - Concur with Radiant, nominator's choice of username and his/her [Contributions] strongly indicates the possibility of a sockpuppet at work. - Mailer Diablo 21:55, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, the account name, edit history, and nomination editorial all suggest more than just possibility. --GRider\talk 22:00, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Although an obvious sockpuppet, I'm not aware who he/she is, perhaps you would like to request assistance from a developer to investigate this? - Mailer Diablo 22:03, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, if a developer would oblige, this should be investigated. --GRider\talk 22:06, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - David Gerard 22:09, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * merge and redirect onto the article about the shooting. The school isn't notable for anything else, so why have two articles? Thryduulf 22:18, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - The shootings will inevitably lead to interest in the background of the school. This article should be expanded very soon, but certainly not deleted.--LukeSurl 23:04, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with the article on the massacre. Split back out later if needed. --Carnildo 23:06, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge content as background to the massacre article and redirect title there. --Calton | Talk 00:32, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. All public institutions belong in Wikipedia.--Gene_poole 02:20, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Contains interesting information - Wikipedia is not paper. --ShaunMacPherson 02:43, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. School's status is now notable following the recent massacre and it deserves an article. --Andylkl (talk) 04:17, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * KEEP. This Vfd is totally messed up. How can you say that a school shooting, or in this case a massacre, doesn't make a school notable? I'm sure Columbine and Santee were the same way (non-notable) before their's happened, but national news, even worldwide news changes the perception of a formerly non-notable place, especially when death is involved. (odd though, Santee doesnt have an article...)-- Riffsyphon1024 04:43, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * Extreme keep for the many many reasons above. &mdash;RaD Man (talk) 08:24, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep and improve. If the existence of the school is not disputed, then there is no reason that this is not a valid article topic. Notability is subjective, but schools with more than a few students should automatically pass the test. Wiki is not paper. Someone please wake me up when there is finally a policy vote about keeping school articles.  ~leif &#9786; HELO 20:32, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * Wiki is not paper not is it garbage can. Other than a murder, these schools are not noteworthy. There are articles for colleges because you may want to select a college that's best for you regardless of distance. A New Yorker who lives next to the NYU may want to go to Stanford to complete his/her education. I don't see too many people who live in Long Island and go to a high school in, maybe, Brooklyn. High schools, except for some truly great ones, are not noteworthy. -- Toytoy 01:07, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * delete. bring the wikinews article back and pretty it up when it's stable and ready to be a wikipedia article.
 * Keep. Notable like Columbine High School is notable.  --L33tminion | (talk) 00:54, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.