Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reform in the Ottoman Empire


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The article is found to be editorial synthesis, and therefore not suitable for inclusion on this encyclopedia. &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 21:39, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Reform in the Ottoman Empire

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Article is totally a WP:SYNTH duplicate mess of the several articles comprising the History of the Ottoman Empire template, such as Stagnation and reform of the Ottoman Empire and the rest. 92slim (talk) 23:41, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge into existing articles. BMK (talk) 00:58, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep.This page was proposed for deletion; the reason being duplication. (Stagnation and reform of the Ottoman Empire). Well the rationale is groundless. As you can see in the history of the "Stagnation and reform of the Ottoman Empire", originally the  article was about the stagnation period only. It mostly covered wars. But in 2015 an editor moved the title to "stagnation and reform", a most unsuitable title. (Stagnation period is the 17th century and most of the reforms were after stagnation period)   The reforms in the Ottoman Empire however  covers only the reforms (and the reform attemts) in the whole Ottoman history up to 1922. So these two articles don't overlap. Besides you can't merge general history in the 17th century to reforms in the say 19th century. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:57, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The proposal is to delete the article and merge the contents. Don't see how your argument that the creation of a second duplicate article was unsuitable has any validity here, since the contents are basically the same and the dates coincide with the main template structure. - -92slim (talk) 10:14, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If you're really interested in the Ottoman empire periods please see User talk:Nedim Ardoğa/Archive 10 You'll see that the editor who proposed to delete the article is the very same editor who changed the milestones in the sidebox. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:44, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * To put this in context, the article ends in 1828 and is followed by Decline and modernization of the Ottoman Empire, which details the slow decline and modernization of the Empire. Therefore the two reform articles DO overlap. The one which is being preserved (Stagnation and reform of the Ottoman Empire) goes from 1683-1827 and is followed by other series of articles, this one (Reform in the Ottoman Empire) is from 1699-1920 so it's an obvious copy, created by the above user in 2011, unlike the one which is being kept which was created much before in 2005 - so not only it contains WP:SYNTH, it currently is also User:NedimArdoga's WP:POVFORK and the latter doesn't even realize it. As for the sidebox changes, the editor who changed it, User:SelimAnkara1993 made a total mess by mixing titles and content all together in a WP:SYNTH mess, and I just reverted it back to a sane state; no content was deleted, just left this article out since it is a WP:SYNTH copy. The article violates WP:SYNTH and needs to be deleted, or merged to the other one. The fact that I reverted that mess doesn't change this fact, neither your knowledge about history matters here at all; rules do. --92slim (talk) 19:24, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Two remarks: 1.) Stagnation of the Ottoman Empire was a part of chain articles (Others were Rise (1299-1453), Growth (1453 -1579 or 1606), Decline (1699-1839) and Tanzimat (1839-1922)) Beginning by the 17th century there were reforms. Thus one can’t assign reforms to one period only. (In fact majority of the reforms were in the last period.)  2.)  Article Reforms in the Ottoman Empire was created in 2011 and the article Stagnation of the Ottoman Empire was changed  and renamed in 2014. (see histories of both articles.)  Thus Stagnation article should be reverted to its original form and Reforms of the Ottoman Empire should be kept as it is Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 10:09, 13 January 2016 (UTC).
 * So what? Stagnation of the Ottoman Empire was still created in 2005, earlier than your article. The point is that one of them has to be deleted, yours is chosen just because it's newer therefore it's a WP:POVFORK, even if unintended. Therefore the content can be merged, unless you have a better proposal. --92slim (talk) 10:24, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * You're mistaken. The original articles had almost nothing to do with the reforms. The reforms were added much later than the Reforms in the Ottoman Empire article. If you've time please check it. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 11:17, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Pal, the main reason I nominated the article is because both articles have the same content. If you want, you can modify it so they're clearly distinguishable, but currently both have very similar contents, one spans to a century before, one after, but nonetheless they both overlap in contents. If you think that the articles should be organized in a different manner, I suggest deleting this article or the other one, and creating a new series of articles which in your opinion could accurately reflect how the history of the Empire unfolded. If you thought my point was to delete the contents altogether, you couldn't be further from the truth. I'm just saying that if the contents are almost a copy-paste, that already is construed as a fork of the other article. I'm by no means an expert in the history of the Ottoman Empire, but when I see a mess like this, it's necessary to take some action, and make it clearer for everyone to understand. --92slim (talk) 22:23, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions.  Human 3015   Let It Go    18:25, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions.  Human 3015   Let It Go    18:26, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions.  Human 3015   Let It Go    18:26, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions.  Human 3015   Let It Go    18:26, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Stagnation and reform of the Ottoman Empire refers to the events between "1683 to 1827", while Reform in the Ottoman Empire refers to different reform movements from 1718 to 1920. It has a meaningful approach to separate these events. -- Seyyed(t-c) 12:20, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment The phrase "reform in the Ottoman Empire" is usually used to refer to the Tanzimat period. I'm not seeing sources in the AfD article that use this "reform in the Ottoman Empire" terminology - the content of the article just seems to be an OR / Synthesis of potted events spanning 200 years of the history of the Ottoman Empire. Gradual changes within a society over time is not reform. Innovation in itself is not reform. For example, what have the establishment of ceramic and textile factories to do with reform - unless there are sources that say their foundation was part of a reform program for the empire's industrial base? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:23, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I've also got doubts about the sources (arising from experience rather than knowledge about those specifically cited). What is the publication origin of the multi-volume "Türkiye tarihi" for example? Are there neutral reviews of it? Multi volume works published in Turkey in the 1990s tend to be propaganda works, and if this title is a state production intended for school or college use it is probably a work of propaganda. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:35, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Beginning by the 17th century some statesmen in the Ottoman Empire saw the need of reforms. But they were usually unsuccessful. (see the text) But as the gap between the West and the Ottoman Empire widened the reforms became inevitable. Beginning by the Islahat (1856) the reform programs were supervised by the Great Powers of Europe. But this does not mean that the reforms began by the 19th century. This article tries to summarize the reform attempts . (In fact earlier title was “Reform attempts of the Ottoman Empire”) One may object some events such as ceramic factories being considered reform. OK but that’s no reason for deletion. After all everybody can edit and improve the article. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:19, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I still think this is confusing change with reform, and that the article is synthesis. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 00:00, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Merge if not, Delete. It appears that this article far too vague in that it incorporates everything that it can when it comes to any Ottoman reform policy. Imagine having Reform in the Roman Empire article? Imagine the chaos that would entail. So it is for this reason why there is so much material in this article that can be found in other more relevant but specific articles. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:39, 14 January 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 01:55, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete or merge -- While I accept that the article is at present not a good one, I get the feeling that it is still under construction. It is within WP legitimate to have an article covering a topic, here History of the Ottoman Empire and a series of sub-articles, linked by a "main" template giving more detail.  To cover the history of a country that lasted over 650 years in a single article has to mean that the detail will be limited.  However we have that: Stagnation and reform of the Ottoman Empire and two subsequent articles.  Some of these in turn have more detailed sub-articles.  I think those articles would be better titled as History of the Ottoman Empire, 1683-1827 etc.  A flowery title for the period, will be appropriate as a heading in the general article, but the main article needs a precise title, which cannot attract irrelevant accretions.  Accordingly, we do not need a second series of sub-articles, which must accordingly be merged to the existing series, if they add anything useful; or if not, plain deleted (or redirected).  It is possible that it might be legitimate to have an article on "Reform movements in the Ottoman Empire", dealing with those periods when reforms were being introduced, but that is not what this article is at present trying to do.  Efforts would be better directed to filling out detail and providing better references for the main series of articles.  I would comment on the "stagnation" article, that it needs work, if only by linking the names of sultans in the article to their bio-articles.  Peterkingiron (talk) 09:54, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - after thought, I think the very wide range of content within the article does not fit the article title, and probably never will. I also feel the topic title itself may be OR, cramming a number of actually disconnected events artificially into a single topic. Any original sourced content could be merged into History of the Ottoman Empire (or subarticles if more appropriate). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:22, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment The discussion is closed . But I'd like to clarify. 6 century-Ottoman History is a very wide subject. see Index of articles related to the Ottoman Empire which is still incomplete. Most Ottoman-History historians will agree that the reform attempts was a 4 century struggle (tradition vs modernization) and it deserves to be treated separately. The article "stagnation" has nothing to do with the reforms. As I've pointed out earlier, stagnation was a period in the 17th century between the treaties of Zssitvatorak and the Karlowitz. Besides it is a link in a series of 5 articles. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:04, 20 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete There's a good reason why there are no other articles called "Reform in country X" attempting to cover all reforms in a country's history. The article is WP:SYNTH because it cherry-picks events from books on general history of the Ottoman empire based on unclear and unsourced criteria. There are books out there with "Ottoman reforms" in the title devoted to the Tanzimat period, but I see no evidence of all reforms in the Ottoman Empire being treated as a single topic in RSs. Eperoton (talk) 23:18, 21 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete and move content to named existing articles. D4iNa4 (talk) 07:46, 25 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.