Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Religious democracy 2


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was NO CONSENSUS TO DELETE. There's not really much more to say than that. The numbers are about equal and so, in my view, is the strength of argument. Some of the Keep arguments are weak, but some are reasonably strong.That the page was moved by a banned user is interesting but not very germane. Herostratus 15:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Religious democracy

 * - (View AfD) (View log)

There seems to have been a malformed and aborted AfD on this previously Articles for deletion/Religious democracy, and an old mediation cabal case Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-01-11 Islamic democracy.

This article is essentially an essay - one could start with the phrase "religious democracy" and go off in any number of directions as an essayist. In this case three of the four sources for the first two sections seem to indicate the author is trying to discuss or generalize some sort of  Iranian context of religioius democracy (although this is not mentioned in the text). The existing Islamic democracy article has an "Iran" section which would seem the natural home if this is the case. One could point out a number of opinions, unsourced assertions, mangled writing, etc. - the article seems to have originated as a redirect to Khatami-ism, then to Religious democracy (disambiguation), with the existing text being the remnant of a larger insertion by User:Farhoudk. The AfD and mediation would seem to suggest this is some sort of POV fork, but frankly the whole history is so convoluted it is hard to tell.

The "American" section seems to have been bolted on later, begins with an odd and certainly untrue assertion ("term 'American Religious Democracy' first used by Bruce Ledewitz"; Google search showing many other uses here) and proceeds to copyvio the blurb for the book (, published 2007). David Oberst 08:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - per my nom. Restore (at least for now) Religious democracy (disambiguation), which this article has orphaned, to Religious democracy.  Even if some sort of general article on the various uses of the term "religious democracy" is someday deemed necessary and created, it won't be this.  - David Oberst 08:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep - First please take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-01-12_Religious_Democracy and then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Patchouli Farhoudk 10:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. If you support retaining the article, you need to issue a KEEP vote. The non-affirmative statement &mdash; ''Do not delete &mdash; is remark that leaves much to be desired, especially during AfD discussions. Aarktica 13:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * See WP:BITE. Your attitude towards this user leaves much to be desired. Good grief! As if the world is about to end because he used a different way of "voting". BTW in case you didn't know, AfD is not a vote. So give it a rest from now on and keep your unpleasantries to yourself. Khorshid 00:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Mister Pedantic. You might want to check into WP:CIV before acting all high and mighty. --Aarktica 15:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep this article has good references and has been wikified well. It's not neologism. This issue has enough notability. -- Sa.vakilian(t-c) 17:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Worse articles than this have lived to see another day. I'd slap on a "cleanup" tag and move on. YechielMan 18:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - There are a couple of problems with this. The first is whether there is some sort of existing core usage of the phrase "religious democracy" that an article can be built around, as opposed to a number of varying usages of what is going to be a likely phrase for those writing about the combination of "religion" and "democracy".  As a parallel example, the phrase  "economic democracy" is the title of a book by Social  credit theorist C. H. Douglas, a fairly common term in 19th century leftist/Marxist writings, a market socialism theory of David Schweickart, a somewhat crankish usage by J. W. Smith, etc.  None of these would fit together in anything other than the most general umbrella article or disambiguation page, certainly not one that began "Economic democracy is".  I suspect "religious democracy" is something similar - the copyvio paste job and "first used by Bruce Ledewitz" howler certainly gives one no confidence that the article's proponent is reporting and existing a discrete concept and not some particular synthesis of their own.
 * The opening paragraphs appear to be a fairly direct (if linguistically challenged) reworking of the Soroush article (complete with a number of lifted phrases such "hue and colour", etc.), which is a (translated) newspaper interview - hardly a confidence-inspiring definitional foundation for an article which essentially becomes an overview article for Christian democracy, Islamic democracy, etc. "Cleanup" tags are all very well, but exactly where would one start with this?   - David Oberst 21:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak keep though essentially an essay, seems fairly well-written. I have weasel-worded one of the statements in the article to neutralize its POV. 38.100.34.2 20:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Further Comment - the core text of the opening paragraphs can also be found at Abdolkarim_Soroush, where it is more properly scoped as "a topic in contemporary Iranian philosophy" (I assume "political philosophy" or "political science" as equivalents). I can't tell the exact chronology or direction of the cut and pasting, but in any case this emphasizes my point above regarding its suitability as the basis of a general article. - David Oberst 21:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * weak delete I do not see anything in the refs to indicate this is a standard terminology used generally; no doubt the concept exists, but why in this the correct phrase?DGG 22:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete This is another one of these "I want to comment on government so I'll invent a new term" articles. Democracy isn't a word like "nice" that can be applied to whatever you want it to mean, it is a very specific term deriving from the Greek demokratia (people-power). It literally means ordinary people sitting in government. The article is not about democracy (either in the strict or "nice governemtn" sense) and its relationship to religion, it is not about democracy in a religious state (which might both be worthy of inclusion) nor is it about a specific term in frequent use. It therefore is simply original research and should be deleted. Mike 23:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Good references, legitimate subject. As a term may not be scattered all over New York Times and Fox News, but still exists and is used in academic circles. That is good enough for Wikipedia. Khorshid 00:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Religious_democracy&diff=110802672&oldid=110784668 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-01-12_Religious_Democracy#Compromise_offers Farhoudk 03:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * delete POV sect. Not a real concept--Sefringle 05:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment At first it was something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Farhoudk&redirect=no#Democracy_is_not_Secularism.21 but Patchouli changed it drastically and then merged it with Islamic democracy. But we finally agreed to keep the article religious democracy. It was really a big headache for me! I think the concept is generalization of what religious people do in a democratic manner. If all prophetes gather in a city, they will live in peace. Farhoudk 09:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete While the subject itself is not objectionable, since we have Christian democracy and Islamic democracy, the article as it stands has no factual content, but consists of a rambling essay on arbitrarily defined terms. No editor has made the case that this is a real construct used regularly by political commentators, historians, or some other relevant profession. Djcastel 16:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete - Too vague, seems unnecessary & out-of-line with reality for the most part. The real stuff already has its place elsewhere, so this article is not needed.  The Behnam 05:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect to Islamic Democracy - It's common terminology in acadamic discussions relating to democracy in the Muslim world. --Mardavich 07:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That is covered elsewhere. This article seems to be talking about America, amazingly enough.  The Behnam 08:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Where is it covered? If so, this then this should be a redirect to that article. --Mardavich 08:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Islamic Democracy, if I am not mistaken. The Behnam 08:28, 30

March 2007 (UTC)
 * But what about Christian democracy, Basic Laws of Israel, etc. ? They are not Islamic for sure. The term religious generalizes the concept of religious democracy to all religions. The first paragraph may refer to lectures of some Iranian or Muslim scholars but it does not mean that the concept is Iranian or Islamic; it is religious. This is why I requested for expansion of the article to ask how democracy and every other religion can co-exist in a country and specially all together (See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Religious_democracy&diff=110802672&oldid=110784668). Farhoudk 06:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Weak delete per DGG --Rayis 09:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Not a real concept and fit for an essay not an encyclopedia. Madhava 1947 (talk) 10:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * delete this original research. Springnuts 11:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Religious_democracy for an old AfD of Religious democracy made by user:Patchouli. And also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Religious_democracy.


 * Farhoudk 05:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.