Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Renaissance Workshop Company


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus that it does not satisfy our standards of notability. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:52, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Renaissance Workshop Company

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Apparently non-notable business, seemingly an offshoot of the Early Music Shop. I see no indication that this meets WP:NCORP – a few mentions on Gbooks, three mentions on Scholar, and four hits on JSTOR, all to advertisements in Early Music magazine. I can find no in-depth coverage of the company. A large part of the existing article is copied from, and deals only with, the Early Music Shop. A redirect to that page has twice been attempted (once by me), and reverted both times by the same Spanish IP SPA. NB: according to unreferenced material in the page, the business moved its manufacturing to Toledo in 2004. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:51, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:51, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:51, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:51, 10 May 2020 (UTC)


 * About Renaissance Workshop Company and the Early Music Shop


 * The Early Music Shop is not a company. It is the name of a number of shops around the globe (coincident in the name but independent business and owners). Among them, it is a non-registered brand used intermittently since 1968 by the company J. Woods and Sons Ltd. (Company number 00079392 in England and Wales).


 * In mid-1999, J. Wood and Sons Ltd. was split in two. The main part consisting in all the workshops and manufacturing facilities, designs, copyrights, etc. were bought by its director Jonathan Askey. As a factory, the ‘Early Music Shop’ was not the most appropriate name to continue with and so, Jonathan renamed and established the business as the Renaissance Workshop Company Ltd. (Company number 03784109 in England and Wales).


 * The rest of the company, consisting only in a very small number of musical instruments in stock at that moment, and the name of the company in bankruptcy (J. Wood and Sons Ltd.) was sold to a “retailer of electrical household appliances and radio and television goods”: Geo. A. Williams & Son (Holdings) Ltd. (Company number 01346761). After years, in which almost nothing was sold, J. Wood and Sons Ltd. (again, only the name and the small stock) was transferred in 2007 to another holding: the Music Sales Group Ltd. (registered in Jersey), being the immediate controlling party Music in Print Ltd. (company number 01250515 in England and Wales). In 2008, J Wood & Sons Ltd definitively ceased trading but The Music Sales Group recovered the name ‘Early Music Shop’ for two completely new shops, one in Saltaire, and another one in London. Both shops marketing third-party replicas of musical instruments.


 * In August 2018, Chris Butler, the Head of Publishing and Rights for the Music Sales Group, announced his personal acquisition of the dormant company J Wood & Sons Ltd in order to continue operating the Saltaire shop, naturally with the name ‘Early Music Shop’.


 * By that time, the only significant change in the Renaissance Workshop Company Ltd. was the move to Toledo (Spain) of the main workshop in 2004, keeping the headquarters in UK and the commercial network around the globe. Renaissance Workshop Company's core business is manufacturing and wholesale, so doesn’t advertise in mass media and its name is not as well known as that of a retailer.


 * The Renaissance Workshop Company Ltd. has kept producing the same range of musical instruments since the first workshop was set up in 1968 and has changing owners and directors only once since then. At the beginning it operated with the brand name of The Early Music Shop, and from 1999 with its full new name Renaissance Workshop Company or RWC.


 * In summary:


 * J Wood & Sons Ltd. used the name ‘Early Music Shop’ to market their own instruments and third-party products.


 * Due to financial issues, in 1999 all the assets of J Wood & Sons Ltd. were sold to its director and the name of the business was changed to The Renaissance Workshop Company Ltd without ever leaving its original activity.


 * The Renaissance Workshop Company Ltd. is the natural heir and continuation of J Wood & Sons L::td.


 * The name ‘Early Music Shop’ continued to be used as a promotional brand by several business trading in historical instruments, but the Renaissance Workshop Company did not because it is more of a factory than a store.


 * In 2018, the ‘dormant’ company J Wood & Sons Ltd. has been resurrected and sold to a new owner in order to have a legal frame to manage a shop in Saltaire who was called ‘Early Music Shop’ (as some others).


 * In my opinion, almost nobody knows the dealer J Wood & Sons Ltd. and some know the manufacturer Renaissance Workshop Company Ltd. The commercial name ‘Early Music Shop’ is better known because it is about fifty, and there are a number of shops around the world with that name. We are the ones that used it first time.


 * Is that a reason to allow The Early Music Shop brand to have its entry in Wikipedia (promoted as if it were a company or only the Saltaire shop) and to prevent The Renaissance Workshop Company Ltd. from having its own? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.34.79.75 (talk) 05:26, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * See WP:WAX; the fact that The Early Music Shop has an article doesn't have a huge amount of bearing on whether this article should exist. The question is whether this article meets Wikipedia's guidelines; indeed, as the OP said, the RWC doesn't seem to have any coverage in third-party reliable sources (and I can't find any either).  I appreciate that there's some lineage from Wood's in Bradford, and there might be a case made that Wood's is notable, but notability is not inherited, so the fact that that company might be allowed an article doesn't automatically mean this one should.
 * (As it happens, the business operating the Saltaire/London shop does seem to have had that significant coverage in third-party sources; the article is under the common name of the company, which is the brand it operates. I'm sure it's a generic enough brand name that other people have operated under it around the world, but that's also not really a relevant factor here.)
 * Incidentally, I hope I'm not making any incorrect assumptions here, but from your intricate knowledge of the company structure it sounds as if you may have some connection to the company; if so, see WP:PSCOI. In short, you really need to declare that connection, if one exists. YorkshireLad  ✿  (talk) 11:29, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, I hope I'm not making any incorrect assumptions here, but from your intricate knowledge of the company structure it sounds as if you may have some connection to the company; if so, see WP:PSCOI. In short, you really need to declare that connection, if one exists. YorkshireLad  ✿  (talk) 11:29, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, I hope I'm not making any incorrect assumptions here, but from your intricate knowledge of the company structure it sounds as if you may have some connection to the company; if so, see WP:PSCOI. In short, you really need to declare that connection, if one exists. YorkshireLad  ✿  (talk) 11:29, 11 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete per OP and per my comments above in reply to the IP poster. <b style="color:#049">YorkshireLad</b> ✿  <b style="color:#052">(talk)</b> 11:29, 11 May 2020 (UTC) Draftify: there are now some sources on the article and its talk page, which do seem to talk about the company (though several are offline so I can't check easily).  I'm not sure they're going to get it over the threshold of WP:GNG before this AfD closes but there is an IP editor actively working on the article at the moment; perhaps the best compromise is to allow them to keep working on the article in draftspace, and hopefully it will eventually be ready to move back into mainspace.  (If it's a binary keep/delete choice, at this point I'd rather it be kept, without prejudice against a further AfD if the changes being made don't show it meets WP:GNG.) <b style="color:#049">YorkshireLad</b>  ✿  <b style="color:#052">(talk)</b> 22:13, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete as per nom Lyndaship (talk) 11:33, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions. <b style="color:#049">YorkshireLad</b>  ✿  <b style="color:#052">(talk)</b> 11:48, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

All right. Thank you. I understand your interests.

Mazca and DVdm are determined to maintain an old version and to prevent the improvement of the page content. And accuse me of vandalism!

If you don't like having an article about The Renaissance Workshop Company, please delete it. I can't be every day for years trying to convince you all. There are many other things in life that are more important than trying to understand your intricate policies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.34.79.75 (talk) 12:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete Per nom, doesn't seem to be notable enough to have an article. Padgriffin  Griffin Noises 13:41, 11 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete If you don't like having an article about The Renaissance Workshop Company, please delete it. I can't be every day for years trying to convince you all. There are many other things in life that are more important than trying to understand your intricate policies. And nobody needs to have Wikipedia as a reference to get any information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.34.79.75 (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment Just FYI, an IP (not the same one, but the same block, and apparently the same individual) has been editing the article pretty heavily; from a quick glance they've added at least one reference. Don't know if it's enough to save the article from deletion but thought I should mention, in the interests of fairness.  <b style="color:#049">YorkshireLad</b>  ✿  <b style="color:#052">(talk)</b> 19:28, 17 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.