Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rener Gracie


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Gracie family. RL0919 (talk) 13:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Rener Gracie

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Another member of Gracie Family that's not actually notable. Not as a coach, a martial artist or as a businessman. Also probable COI/vanity page, based on creater's history of only this page and the page of the subject's father.Nswix (talk) 02:34, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Sports, Martial arts,  and Brazil. Nswix (talk) 02:34, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm the creator of this page and you are correct that I know the subject, Rener Gracie. I'm a published historian with a PhD History from the Ohio State University and I have served on the faculty at the United States Military Academy and Old Dominion University.  My point is that I'm well-qualified as a trained researcher who can objectively assess and effectively present material that meets the Wikipedia criteria for inclusion.  I'm not a sycophant and this is not a vanity page.  Rener Gracie is not "another member of the Gracie family."  He is, however, the only notable Gracie family member other than his grandfather, Helio Gracie, and his father, Rorion Gracie.  The article cites numerous achievements to support this assessment. To address your specific concerns, I agree that his achievements as a coach/trainer aren't notable. While he is the principal jiu-jitsu coach/trainer for highly successful UFC fighter Brian Ortega, coaching/training sports competitors is not how he invests his time.  As a martial artist, his achievements are remarkable.  His creation of the Gracie University is on par with his father's founding of the UFC and his grandfather's creation of the unique Gracie jiu-jitsu self-defense system.  He has grown the original Gracie Academy in Torrance, CA into a worldwide network of over 200 training centers and over 380,000 online students.  His ability to use distance learning technology to reach an international audience with quality instruction and preservation of high standards is unique in the martial arts.  He has also led a nationwide movement to incorporate jiu-jitsu control techniques in law enforcement officer training.  His program, Gracie Survival Tactics, is one of the few approved courses of instruction in nearly every state.  His presence on YouTube conducting Gracie Breakdowns of assaults and frequent appearances on the FOX News Dan Bongino show as a self-defense expert have given him an increasingly visible platform to advance the use of jiu-jitsu as a solution to police use of excessive force.  HIs success as a martial artist in these two areas alone justify his inclusion in Wikipedia.  His achievements as a businessman are only remarkable because he has carved out a niche for himself as an entrepreneur and inventor apart from his core competency in jiu-jitsu.  To be one of the few whose product and presentation "wins" an endorsement on Shark Tank and evolves into a profitable clothing line is notable.  I know the family history well, and would agree with deleting all of the articles about Gracie family members except for Helio, Rorion, and Rener. Billodom2 (talk) 03:58, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hey @Billodom2, are you connected in some way to Rener's father, Rorion Gracie? I have reason to believe that you are, and I'd appreciate some clarification on it. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:20, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've known him professionally for many years. The specific relationship is that I'm a jiu-jitsu practitioner and he introduced me to the martial art. Subsequently, I became licensed to teach their programs. As noted in my first response, I'm a professional editor, and historian (PhD History, Ohio State University) well-versed in thoroughly researching, documenting sources, objectively assessing, and finally presenting written conclusions. So, I'm capable of creating and contributing to the Rorion Gracie page without bias. In fact, I'm so attuned to it that I would err in the other direction to avoid an accusation of bias or favoritism. I am licensed to teach the Gracie jiu-jitsu curriculum, but have no investments in either Rener or Rorion's business ventures. 2600:8805:1A10:3200:2979:9DD8:818E:BA2C (talk) 21:39, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * To be sure, there are several Gracie family members who were notable competitors - Rickson, Royler, Renzo, and arguably Royce as the first UFC champion. But, their achievements are limited to the ring/mat and, while impressive, lack the overall impact of Helio, Rorion, and Rener.  People who dispute Rener's notability tend to focus on his competition record and are unaware of the more important, lasting, and pioneering contribution he has made as a jiu-jitsu instructor. Billodom2 (talk) 04:12, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep PLENTY of sources available online. Nocturnal781 (talk) 04:31, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - The article was here for years with nobody having any issues then rules changed. Now tens of thousands of article are going to be hit over rules that I ultimately feel will be reversed. He's known for more than one thing along with being a member of the most famous family in MMA. How does deleting this article benefit wikipedia?KatoKungLee (talk) 16:50, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So, what your saying is, he doesn't meet notability under the current rules, you just have a problem with the rules. Nswix (talk) 17:14, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:IAR and WP:BOLD. I don't see how deleting this article helps anyone or the website.KatoKungLee (talk) 22:35, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect: Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED and it appears their primary claim to fame is simply being a member of the Gracie family. I also have a concern that the article's creator, Billodom2, has a COI and a possible connection to Rorion Gracie, the father of this subject. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:12, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * See my comment above about my relationship to Rener and Rorion. It's not a COI.  In this case, both men are members of a very large family - Rorion has 10 children, Helio had ten (I think), and Helio's brother, Carlos, had over 20 children.  Rorion and Rener's are notable because they stand out among this sea of talented jiu-jitsu instructors and competitors.  In both cases, they have achieved more than than their predecessors and contemporaries. 2600:8805:1A10:3200:2979:9DD8:818E:BA2C (talk) 21:46, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Gracie Family. Fails WP:GNG due to lack of significant coverage and notability is not WP:NOTINHERITED. Alvaldi (talk) 20:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * When I created the article, the sources were a hundred or more articles in martial arts publications from around the world about Rorion in particular, and some about Rener as well. Now, Rener has emerged as a national spokesperson for the use of jiu-jitsu by law enforcement to reduce the level of police violence.  I could update the article with a list of publications and show the extent of his internet presence to address the GNG for significant coverage. 2600:8805:1A10:3200:2979:9DD8:818E:BA2C (talk) 21:50, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect. GNG is established by significant coverage in independent secondary sources, which excludes anything that has any connection to him whatsoever. The sources I found in my search were interviews (not independent or secondary), promotional material, and coverage by organizations affiliated with him. JoelleJay (talk) 06:19, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have updated the article with a list of online publications that show the extent of his internet presence to address the GNG for significant coverage. Billodom2 (talk) 20:02, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I reverted because it's just a dump of links. Please see Help:Referencing for beginners. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:15, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm awaiting feedback from Wikimedia editors through a senior Wikipedia moderator to determine which links meet the GNG standard. Once I've received it, I'll map the references to appropriate content in the article.  The link dump was meant to show that there is ample secondary coverage to warrant keeping this article.  Most of this was not available at the time when I created the article nor was the requirement for documentation as stringent as it is now. I just need time to pull it together. Billodom2 (talk) 23:09, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Billodom2 What would you say are the WP:THREE best sources that go towards GNG for the subject? Alvaldi (talk) 20:27, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I haven't worked through the details of each article, but there is coverage by major publications of his efforts to show how jiu-jitsu can address bullying among children, sexual assault, and police violence. I know that I have work to do here to properly enter the references, but I'm trying to buy time to complete the update.  I don't want to have the page deleted and have to start all over again. 2600:8805:1A10:3200:2979:9DD8:818E:BA2C (talk) 14:32, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Billodom2, if this is redirected, you will still be able to access the full page through its history at the redirect. If you do have GNG-fulfilling references you can then add them to the version before the redirection and republish the page. However you should make sure your sources actually do comply with GNG first. JoelleJay (talk) 17:01, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.