Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Renzo Picasso


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.  Sandstein  17:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Renzo Picasso

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I believe this is a hoax, as discussed on Talk:Renzo Picasso. Jmabel &#124; Talk 05:07, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Jmabel &#124; Talk 05:07, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - the book you discuss on the talkpage is a conference proceeding, and the author is/was a doctoral student at the University of Genova. It is unlikely that you would find this in a world catalogue of books as it may not have been published outside of the narrow academic field. But, I think it is fair to be cautious about this as a single source. But I don't think this is a single source: here is a news article in the Repubblica, this appears to be a genuine exhibition guide where the artwork appears, this appears to be a genuine book which references the work, this appears to be a genuine cultural publication referring to the guy.
 * If this is indeed a hoax, then it involves a lot of different people producing high quality materials which has taken in national media and international museums (I've found various blogs by museums referring to the artwork). It is possible, but I think that's pretty hard to believe - and much easier to believe that the works laid undiscovered for a considerable time and then began to be discussed and scanned onto the internet. JMWt (talk) 08:49, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * You may be correct, but I wouldn't rule out an elaborate hoax. Note that one of the supposed references given in the original article was "The Autopoiesis of Architecture, Volume II: A New Agenda for ...", and that the original article came from someone with virtually no other contributions to Wikipedia. Click through on that and tell me whether you think this is worth investigtating. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 19:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I also find this on Etsy more suspicious than encouraging, especially the statement "This is a selection of Renzo Picasso’s work. More is coming soon, as it is restored!" - Jmabel &#124; Talk Jmabel &#124; Talk 19:18, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd hardly use Etsy as proof this is a hoax. That shop is opened in 2014. This article was created in 2012. --MurderByDeadcopy"bang!" 20:14, 13 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep only if better sourcing can be clarified but if not, delete for now until a better article can be made as Books instantly found some links but nothing convincingly better. Notifying taggers, , and .  SwisterTwister   talk  20:48, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't even remember this one - must have processed it as part of new article checking. I'll leave it up to others to make the right call. Mabalu (talk) 02:14, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * And I only found it while processing CAT:CSD contents. Jmabel, I'm confused by your comments (I'm really sleepy, so maybe your comments wouldn't be confusing to an awake person); are you guessing that  is a hoax?  I'm finding references to the primary author (Sonia Massari) in lots of places, ranging from  to ; apparently she's a food scholar (not sure whether she's a nutritionist or a folklorist concentrating on foodways) with the University of Illinois.  The proceedings itself appears in at least one academic CV, this guy who claims to be a faculty member in the history department at the University of Turin.  JMWt's link with "this appears to be a genuine book" is in WorldCAT and widely held, and the authors appear to be a civil engineering professor (she's written a lot of WorldCAT works) and an architecture professor with 113 editions of her work on WorldCAT.  Maybe this is relevant to your concerns, or maybe I'm too sleepy to realise that it's not relevant...either way, I'm not going to say anything more tonight.  Nyttend (talk) 06:19, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm sure Sonia Massari really wrote that; what I doubt is the claim that Gian Luca Porcile is a co-author, and the title "The Essence of Absence" is just the sort of thing a playful hoaxer would claim to have co-written. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 06:25, 14 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I think you are Tilting at windmills, Jmabel. Let's just say that Gian Luca Porcile didn't write the reference. What does that change?  As Nyttend says above, there is a book with a WorldCAT reference which is widely held and references Renzo Picasso. I can't see that proving if Gian Luca Porcile really co-wrote "The Essence of Absence" makes the blindest bit of difference to the existence of Renzo Picasso. Porcile could be lying, but Renzo Picasso could still exist outside of his imagination.
 * I see multiple references which might not be suitable for this page, but which prove the existence of an Italian architect called Renzo Picasso dating to at least the 1960s. Maybe the paintings which are doing the rounds all over the internet where not produced by him (how exactly one would prove this to your satisfaction, I have no idea), but you are going to need a lot more evidence for a wild conspiracy theory than your gut feeling. JMWt (talk) 14:34, 14 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Immediately after saying that I was leaving for the night, I thought of one more thing. Jmabel, it sounds to me like you're saying that there's a problem with this book.  What's the problem?  It's held by a bunch of major libraries (see ), and the author is an academic.  Nyttend (talk) 06:26, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that book makes any reference to a Renzo Picasso. It merely refers sequentially to Renzo Piano and Pablo Picasso in a list. If I'm wrong about that, then this is probably not a hoax. Do you find any reference to Renzo Picasso in that book? - Jmabel &#124; Talk 17:13, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

The piece from http://genova.repubblica.it is actually the most convincing thing I've seen so far. So perhaps this wasn't a hoax, just an article on an obscure subject with at least one totally irrelevant reference placed there by its original author. In any case, it at least needs a thorough going over and a rebuild with solid citations from reliable sources. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 17:24, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

& actually the Paolo Bertuccio mention looks pretty convincing, too. So, the article simply needs a thorough going over and a rebuild with solid citations from reliable sources. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 20:46, 14 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep Based on email contact with the Renzo Picasso Archive, and the evidence brought up above. Elzbenz (talk) 16:42, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * No objection to keeping under the circumstances, but is someone willing to take on sourcing it decently? - Jmabel &#124; Talk 22:11, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 17:41, 20 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep and suggest nom withdraw and close under SK1. I have added seven cite books, and while he isn't the best described subject it wasn't that difficult and there are more to add, should need be. Among them is a biography in L'Architettura italiana as early as 1914! The whole elaborate idea that this should be a hoax had easily been avoided had the mandatory WP:BEFORE been performed. Sam Sailor Talk! 17:55, 20 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.