Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Representations of Judah Benjamin in fiction


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There has been little discussion of policy here but there seems to be a consensus here that the content in this article doesn't meet WP:GNG as in the case of my many AFDs involving representations of historical figures/events in popular culture. Some content has been moved to Judah P. Benjamin over the course of this discussion. Liz Read! Talk! 04:59, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Representations of Judah Benjamin in fiction

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

De facto a list of representations of Judah Benjamin in fiction. Very low quality (short and unreferenced) violation of WP:IPC/MOS:POPCULTURE ("Sections with lists of miscellaneous information such as "trivia" sections should be avoided"). Split from the main article a few years ago, whereas such a section should've just been blanked, not moved to a dedicated article in mainspace. Also fails WP:V, WP:GNG and WP:OR. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:15, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Literature, Popular culture, Lists,  and United States of America. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  05:15, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep rejecting this extremist interpretation of policy (again); as usual a barrage of policies are referred to without justification. What about WP:BEFORE? None seems to have been done. The article is certainly unreferenced, but the items listed mostly cannot be described as "trivia" or pop culture. Would listifying help? I can't understand this persecution of cultural references articles. Johnbod (talk) 05:21, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:TNT applies. Maybe this is a notable tapic, but nothing here is salvageable. We have those policies for a reason and things that don't meet minimal standards are not fit to be kept. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:17, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is essentially a list, and nobody has compiled a similar one on this obscure Confederate figure. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:03, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete - The current list itself is not an appropriate list, being an unsourced "pop culture" list that is nothing more than an WP:EXAMPLEFARM of books he appeared in. On top of that, I'm not finding anything that would actually indicate that the concept of fictional depictions of Judah Benjamin is a notable enough topic on its own to need to be split out as its own article. There are mentions of his appearances in pieces of fiction here and there, but there's not enough in the way of significant coverage on that topic in specific that would warrant it being treated as an entirely separate topic for an article, and not just covered in a few sentences in a section on his main article. Merging anything from here to do so, though, would not be appropriate since, again, this is just an unsourced list of trivia. Rorshacma (talk) 19:33, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete as written. This is entirely unsourced, so there is nothing suitable to merge, which is unfortunate given the vogue of fiction amplifying this subject's historical role due to his unusual circumstances. BD2412  T 01:39, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I have cited a few sources in the article, but they are for individual works rather than the general topic. In the pages of ISBN 9780029099117 that Google Books shows me (which include the table of contents and nearly all of the prologue) I can see no evidence that this biographer thought that fictional depictions were worth mentioning. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:51, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @Phil Bridger May I suggest merging anything you found relevant and cited to the main article about Judah Benjamin? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:22, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge with the page on Judah Benjamin by creating a section entitled "In Popular Media" and putting this list there would be the best course of action. TH1980 (talk) 04:06, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete Articles like this require sources on the overarching topic—i.e. Representations of Judah Benjamin in fiction. Not sources on examples thereof, but sources on the overarching topic. I'm all for such articles—see e.g. WP:Articles for deletion/Battle of Thermopylae in popular culture, WP:Articles for deletion/Loch Ness Monster in popular culture (2nd nomination), and WP:Articles for deletion/Neptune in fiction, just to give some examples of such articles that I've rewritten with proper sourcing during AfDs—but when we don't have the sources for it, the article needs to go, as with WP:Articles for deletion/Tonfa in popular culture. There is no properly sourced content to merge to Judah P. Benjamin, and merging a bunch of unsourced content to a WP:Featured article like that is obviously a bad idea. TompaDompa (talk) 03:12, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge into Judah Benjamin. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 06:39, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @Ficaia Didn't you read the comment just above yours, "merging a bunch of unsourced content to a WP:Featured article like that is obviously a bad idea"? I'll ping the FA main author, User:Wehwalt, for their thoughts... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:40, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Who said we have to merge everything? We could selectively merge the 3 items with an inline citation into a brief "In popular culture" section in the main article. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 11:44, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I've reverted. Given that this is likely not to end in a deletion, the better place is here. And it is trivial and not appropriate in a biographic article.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:13, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Let me expand on this. The main article would benefit from a well-written paragraph, say in the Legacy section, not giving a list of works in which Benjamin appears as a character, which will inevitably become a trivia section, but prose sourced to secondary sources showing how fictional representations of him reflect his legacy. The tabletmag article Ficaial cites would be an appropriate source for such a section, though I'd hope there was more than one such source. But please don't start a list that will inevitably have The Guns of the South and others added to it.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:31, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I've tried to do just that. I think it's also a good way to introduce this article through the main article. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 12:34, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Changing vote to Keep. I think this article indicates there has been significant coverage of Benjamin's fictional afterlife. Quotes include: "Benjamin’s legacy as an early American Jew, especially as it has been fictionalized, warrants our consideration today. ... Historians and fiction writers alike have viewed his many mysteries and invested them with multiple meanings. ... Benjamin was, if nothing else, a versatile character, and his fictionalizers have exploited that quality of his." 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 12:07, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest using this as a source to expand his biography first, then if that section grows, it can be split off. Nothing in the current article is usable, so WP:TNT applies. But the source is useful for expanding his bio a bit, it's a good start that may grow into something more if further sources are found. Again, however, we need to start with a source, not an ORish essay. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 16:39, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * PS. I see this was done. Excellent. This is the way to do it - and we don't need this messy list to show us how NOT to do it. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 16:41, 30 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.