Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Republic of Estonia (1918-1940)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus.  Sandstein  20:44, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Republic of Estonia (1918-1940)

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WP:CONTENTFORK, article poorly duplicates information in Republic of Estonia and History of Estonia. It is also a POV fork as it gives the impression that the pre and post war Estonian republics are not the same entity. Similar content fork created by was recently deleted at Articles for deletion/Ireland (1937-1949). --Nug (talk) 13:08, 30 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment I am finding some aspects of the nomination slightly confusing. Republic of Estonia is, and has been for a very long time, a redirect to Estonia. The Republic of Estonia entry in Template:Estonia topics is (and has also been for a very long while) positioned as if referring to the history of Estonia during the 1920s and 1930s but, rather than linking to the article under discussion here or to Republic of Estonia, links to History of Estonia - however, there is no longer a Republic of Estonia section in History of Estonia, as the nominator has, since the start of this AfD, removed its heading, effectively merging the section with the previous one in that article. Having said that, the current article under discussion here covers its supposed topic even less well than the relevant sections of Estonia and History of Estonia - while these both skip from 1920 to 1933, the current article skips from 1920 to 1940. We need a Wikipedia article that covers this period of Estonian history properly - and we don't have it. PWilkinson (talk) 22:10, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure, the article History of Estonia needs improvement and the relevant templates cleaned up to reduce confusion, deleting this content fork is part of that clean up. The two sections in the article subject of this AFD adds nothing new, both have text copy pasted from the articles Estonian War of Independence and Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic which is already summarised in Estonia and History of Estonia anyway. --Nug (talk) 23:08, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:03, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:03, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Keep due to the Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic having existed from 1940 to 1991. GoodDay (talk) 03:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The articles Republic of Estonia and History of Estonia already mention and discuss Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic as a part of that country's history. This article remains a content fork, it adds nothing that isn't already in (or could be added to) those other articles. On another level this article could also be considered a POV fork as it creates the impression that the Estonian republic founded in 1918 came to an end in 1940, however consensus has solidified in reliable sources over the past decade that the Republic of Estonia before the Soviet era is the same and continuous with the Republic of Estonia after the Soviet era. The following is a list of sources:
 * Marek, Krystyna (1968). Identity and continuity of states in public international law (2 ed.). Geneva, Switzerland: Libr. Droz.
 * Hiden, Johan; Salmon, Patrick (1994). The Baltic Nations and Europe (Revised ed.). Harlow, England: Longman. ISBN 0-582-25650-X.
 * Gerard, Craig. The Baltic question during the cold war. Routledge. ISBN 9781134197309.
 * Mälksoo, Lauri (2003). Illegal Annexation and State Continuity: The Case of the Incorporation of the Baltic States by the USSR. M. Nijhoff Publishers. ISBN 90-411-2177-3.
 * Van Elsuwege, Peter (2003). State Continuity and its Consequences: The Case of the Baltic States. Leiden Journal of International Law (Cambridge Journals) 16: pp.377–388. doi:10.1017/S0922156503001195.
 * Ziemele, Ineta (2005). State Continuity and Nationality: The Baltic States and Russia. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers. ISBN 90-04-14295-9.
 * Van Elsuwege, Peter (2008). From Soviet republics to EU member states: a legal and political assessment of the Baltic states' accession to the EU. BRILL. ISBN 978-90-04-16945-6.
 * As it stands this article is factually incorrect as the infobox says the Estonian government-in-exile succeeded it, however the sources cited above state otherwise, and Estonia's 1938 constitution remained in force until it was amended by referendum in 1992, one year after its de facto independence was restored. Note that this article was for a long time, since 2007, a redirect to History of Estonia. Only in May 2012 was it turned into an article but that was promptly reverted back some days later into a redirect. But again it was turned back into an article in December 2014, so deletion is necessary given that this is turning into a potential POV magnet. --Nug (talk) 09:08, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * IMHO, the redirect Republic of Lithuania (1918–1940), should be restored as an article & the redirect Republic of Latvia (1918–1940), should be changed to an article. GoodDay (talk) 05:55, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Republic of Lithuania (1918–1940) was created by an indef-banned user . --Nug (talk) 20:37, 5 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep - This is a rational periodization of Estonian history, much like the above-cited Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic and worthy of in-depth presentation as a sub-page of Estonia. Pretty easy call here, it would seem. Wikipedia is not paper, etc. Carrite (talk) 05:24, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * If it was just a periodization of Estonian history then it should be called History of Estonia (1918-1940), otherwise it remains a POV fork. --Nug (talk) 19:43, 5 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - Truly, it is difficult to see any meaningful information added to this article, which would not be already present in 'Estonia' or 'History of Estonia'. Also, the POV issue. Oth (talk) 05:56, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep -- This is an appropriate way to divide the History of Estonia. The history of this country in this period seems to be woefully ill-recorded in WP, unless I have missed something.  The general history article describes the attainment of indepenedence, then covers the following period in one short paragraph.  The section has a main template leading to events of 1934-40, but I see nothing on 1920-34, not even a list of presidents.  I agree the present article is not a good one, but teh solution is to improve it not delete it or merge it back to a mpre general article.  It may be a fork, but cannot be a POV fork unless someone can point to where it is forked from.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:29, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * It is a POV fork of Republic of Estonia, implying that the pre-war state was a separate and distinct entity, but in fact it is the same according to reliable sources. --Nug (talk) 10:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
 * Delete -- The appropriate title for a period article would be History of Estonia (1918-1940). Therefore this is not a period article but a country article implying a Republic of Estonia other than the current one existed in 1918-1940 (see, e.g. Slovak Republic (1939–45)), which is wrong. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 16:10, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 01:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep This is the proper way to divide Estonian history per Peterkingiron. A completely appropriate way to divide a section of its history. As Carrite says its pretty open and shut. It isn't POV because that is what the name was at that point in time. -DJSasso (talk) 14:14, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Then remove the former country infobox and rename it History of Estonia (1918-1940) (which would still be an unnecessary sub-article given the size of History of Estonia), otherwise it remains a POV fork of Republic of Estonia, since the use of a former country infobox indicates the intent to push the POV that it was a separate former republic when the consensus in reliable sources tells us that it was in fact same and continuous with Republic of Estonia. --Nug (talk) 18:50, 8 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete by the wikipedian style title Republic of Estonia (1918-1940) gives impression that there was a republic that existed from 1918 to 1940, but in reality the Republic of Estonia exists from 1918 to this day and 1918-1940 is a period inside this existence, hence History of Estonia (1918-1940). Same styling: History of Poland (1945–89), History of the Soviet Union (1927–53), History of the People's Republic of China (1989–2002).
 * The Baltic states, the United States and its courts of law, the European Parliament, the European Court of Human Rights and the United Nations Human Rights Council have all stated that these three countries were invaded, occupied and illegally incorporated into the Soviet Union under provisions of the 1939 Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, first by the Soviet Union, then by Nazi Germany from 1941 to 1944, and again by the Soviet Union from 1944 to 1991. This policy of non-recognition has given rise to the principle of legal continuity, which holds that de jure, or as a matter of law, the Baltic states had remained independent states under illegal occupation throughout the period from 1940 to 1991. Continue reading here --Klõps (talk) 20:12, 8 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete and redirect. Superfluous article, all of the relevant content is already covered elsewhere in depth. Why is there even a deletion discussion, just creating redirect to Estonia would have been sufficient. There are no sources showing Republic of Estonia (1918-1940) as an separate entity from Republic of Estonia, so unless such sources are found and presented, the whole article needs to be blanked anyway under WP:Verifiability. -- Sander Säde 08:11, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.