Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Revive the Rose


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There is consensus that this group does not meet our notability requirements despite good faith editing. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:12, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Revive the Rose

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Article about a band, created by their own record label, which claims absolutely nothing that would pass WP:NMUSIC at all. The "accomplishments" documented here are exclusively local stuff like making the final round of a local radio station's battle of the bands competition and creating a theme song for the local junior hockey team and gigging at local venues, and the sources present to support it are entirely local coverage in their local media. As always, however, bands are not automatically exempted from having to pass NMUSIC's achievement-based criteria just because they can show a handful of local coverage in their own hometown -- to claim that they pass NMUSIC #1 in lieu of having to tour or chart or release music on a major label, you have to show nationalized coverage, not just "local band does stuff" pieces in the local newspapers. And even if they could be shown to pass NMUSIC somehow, their own record label still wouldn't get to create the article themselves per our conflict of interest rules. Bearcat (talk) 16:40, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 16:40, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 16:40, 23 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep I agree that record labels shouldn't make articles about their bands. That's why this article was submitted as a draft at WP:AFC - the right thing to do. Before being moved to mainspace, almost all of the text was changed or added by me, a neutral editor who has never met this band, to mitigate any conflict of interest.  The band has been written about extensively in several newspapers, and while the articles were written mostly by journalists from their local area, several were also carried by papers in Cambridge, Waterloo and Peterborough.  I added references to show that the band was interviewed or featured on at least three Toronto radio programs as well as two television stations, including Global.  Although their touring around Ontario (as far as Windsor and Ottawa) didn't attract concert reviews outside of Niagara, their music has been reviewed by two online music magazines not based in the Niagara area. I believe that they pass the general notability requirements.&mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 10:55, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * NMUSIC #4 requires a national tour that receives national coverage, not just a provincial tour that fails to garner any attention outside the band's hometown local media, so there's no basis for claiming that they're notable for touring. NMUSIC #12 requires a "substantial broadcast segment" across an entire national radio or television network, not just appearances on local radio or television stations in any local market (not even Toronto). Neither interviews in which the band is speaking about themselves in the first person nor video clips of the band performing a song are support for notability at all — to support notability, a source has to represent the band being written or spoken about in the third person by somebody other than themselves. And Canadian Beats, The Sound, Music Life Magazine and Spill Magazine are all unreliable and non-notability-supporting blogs, not GNG-worthy music magazines, so they count for nothing — as does Brock Press, because NMUSIC specifically deprecates university and college student media as not legitimate support for musical notability.
 * So for all the reasons I listed above, there are still no notability-supporting sources here that represent anything more than local coverage in their own local market. In a nutshell, the only Canadian producer of radio content that helps to get a band over NMUSIC is the CBC (English and French divisions), and the only Canadian music magazines that count toward getting a band over NMUSIC are Exclaim!, BeatRoute, Canadian Musician and SOCAN's Words and Music. Outside of that, it's daily newspapers or bust, and commercial radio stations and blogs count for nothing.
 * All of which means they pass none of NMUSIC #2-#12 at all — and if a band passes none of NMUSIC 2-12, then they have to have nationalized coverage, not just Golden-Horseshoe-ized coverage, to claim that they have enough media coverage to exempt them from having to meet any of NMUSIC's accomplishment-based criteria. Bearcat (talk) 22:57, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that the band's tour didn't add much to its notability; the student press reference was added to support facts, not for notability. I also agree that the band members' own words aren't independent information; that's why I only used interviews as references to facts stated by the interviewer.  I looked over NMUSIC #1 as carefully as I could, and couldn't find anything saying that only articles in "daily" papers can be used, but the Hamilton Spectator and St. Catharines Standard are dailies. The band has certainly been "the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself"; NMUSIC #1 doesn't say where they have to be published, and anyway the Golden Horseshoe you mention has seven million people. Your statement that play on "commercial" radio stations (ie, those which make money) isn't important can't be right - isn't it the other way around, that subsidized community and campus radio stations are the less notable ones? And Global's The Morning Show is a nationally syndicated program. I agree that the band doesn't meet the other criteria, but only one is required.&mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 12:12, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * All of NMUSIC's criteria that mention radio at all clearly indicate that the radio content has to come from a national network. Content from local radio stations doesn't go to NMUSIC regardless of whether it's a commercial radio station or a campus/community radio station — the reason I mentioned commercial radio stations, and not campus/community radio stations, in that context isn't that campus/community counts for more than commercial, it's that I already pointed out that NMUSIC already deprecates campus/community media as ineligible for use at all, so it wasn't necessary to bring them up again.
 * As for The Morning Show, the problem with that doesn't hinge on whether it's local or national content, and I didn't say it did — the problem with it hinges on the fact that it's not a segment about the band from which to extract any potentially noteworthy information, like a documentary film or a news report, but merely a video clip of them performing a song. Performing live never speaks to NMUSIC just because you meta-reference the performance to a video clip of its own occurrence — performing live only goes to NMUSIC if other third party sources, completely independent of either the band or the performance venue, write or produce third person journalistic content about the performance, such as concert reviews and entertainment news articles. It's not enough to provide technical verification that the performance happened: notability on that basis requires external third party analysis to establish the significance of the performance.
 * It's simply how notability works: if a band actually has strong evidence of passing NMUSIC's specific achievement criteria (2-12), then we don't care how local or non-local the coverage is as long as it properly verifies that the specific achievement is true. But if they pass none of the achievement-based criteria, and instead you're going for "notable just because some media coverage exists", then that media coverage does have to be more than just local to their own hometown media market. Most of our notability criteria for people, in fact, would be completely invalidated if the existence of a handful of local coverage were enough in and of itself to hand someone a GNG-based exemption from actually having to pass the defined notability criteria for their occupation — there are literally millions of people in the world, including me, who could show a small cluster of local coverage in local interest contexts without actually accomplishing anything that would actually satisfy any of our SNGs. GNG is not just "count up the footnotes and keep anything that surpasses an arbitrary number" — it does also test for depth and geographic range and context, not just number. And the population of the GTA doesn't matter, either: NMUSIC looks for nationalized markers of notability, not just technical verification of local or regional activity. Bearcat (talk) 14:36, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks like we'll have to continue to disagree. NMUSIC clearly states only one criteria must be met, even just NMUSIC #1 which appears to be just the general notability requirement for any subject, even bands. You don't think the media coverage is adequate to pass that, and I do, so I'll leave it at that.&mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 05:01, 27 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete I'd consider this a case of WP:TOOSOON: it's an 'up-and-coming' Toronto-based band with a few hundred subscribers on YouTube, a few thousand video views, and a few thousand plays on Spotify. No basis for notability. --Dreamanderson (talk) 07:20, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, it seems they have been mostly ignoring YouTube and posting videos directly on Facebook.&mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 05:01, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 00:28, 30 March 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee //  have a ☕️ //  beans  // 06:47, 6 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete I cannot possibly fathom why we should have a Wikipedia article on this unknown band. It only cites sources from local news websites, all of which are WP:QUESTIONABLE or possibly even WP:SPONSORED. I also suspect Anne Delong, who initially approved this article and is petitioning to keep it, has an undisclosed affiliation with the band. Once again, this garage-band (without any hit songs, no national tours, and no mentions outside of a few local sources) does not meet Wikipedia's guidelines for notability and, at the very least, should be considered WP:TOOSOON and removed. -Dreamanderson (talk) 02:34, 12 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.