Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rey Guevarra


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Spartaz Humbug! 14:03, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Rey Guevarra

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails WP:NBASKETBALL Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 21:41, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. PriceDL (talk) 22:47, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. PriceDL (talk) 22:47, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. PriceDL (talk) 22:47, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Philippines-related deletion discussions. PriceDL (talk) 22:47, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete a non-notable basketball player.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:05, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 08:28, 6 January 2018 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Weak keep - I realize that the PBA is not listed among the WP:NBASKETBALL power leagues, but the PBA is fully professional league in existence since 1975. The subject appears to be notable even within the context of a non-power league.  While I doubt anyone will confuse the subject with LeBron, the subject appears to have sufficient notability to warrant retention.--Rpclod (talk) 13:52, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   18:43, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep 3 time slam-dunk winner., , lots of significant coverage in reliable sources, clearly meets gng. Here's a link to articles at the Philipine Star list of star articles referencing Rey GuevarraJacona (talk) 13:40, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment There's a further parade of sources at the Manila Standard, for instance, he was the country's headliner for the Fiba 3x3.Jacona (talk) 20:36, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment There's more at the Philippines Daily Inquirer. (actually even more here than at the others.) This deletion nomination is ludicrous.Jacona (talk) 20:42, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Although I don't read tagalog, search at various Philippine newspapers (i.e. the Bandera Inquirer) in Tagalog reveals a huge number of articles with Rey Guevarra and other terms such as PBA, images of hoops or other clues that reveal the articles to be coverage of Guevarra. This whole set of deletion nominations of PBA players is fraught with WP:BIAS and a failure to execute WP:BEFORE.Jacona (talk) 20:53, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * List of biased PBA deletion nominations of which I'm aware, and to which the above comments apply include: Articles for deletion/Simon Enciso, Articles for deletion/Simon Enciso, Articles for deletion/Hyram Bagatsing,Articles for deletion/Von Pessumal, Articles for deletion/Don Trollano, Articles for deletion/Teddy Alfarero,Articles for deletion/Ric-Ric Marata,Articles for deletion/Manny Victorino. There may be others, particularly some others may have been deleted.Jacona (talk) 20:58, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment, here's a list of PBA players (and coaches) who have recently been deleted, either through PROD or AfD, though probably all should have been kept if not for language and location bias. Articles for deletion/Prince Caperal,Edward Chongson,Articles for deletion/Anjo Caram,Articles for deletion/Norman Gonzales,Articles for deletion/Aries Dimaunahan,Articles for deletion/Dino Daa,Articles for deletion/Dennis DaaJacona (talk) 21:22, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * One notability criteria for association football (soccer) players is playing for a team included on the list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football. WikiProject Basketball maintains a similar list of full professional basketball leagues which includes the PBA. The preamble suggests:
 * This page is part of the WikiProject on Basketball and provides a list of known fully professional leagues, and also those that are known to not be fully professional. As such this article can be used as an aide in considering the WP:NBASKETBALL guideline, which states that "Players who have appeared, and managers who have managed, in a fully professional league, will generally be regarded as notable."
 * Despite this suggestion, the NBasketball notability criteria does not currently include this and I can only guess that this element was removed at some time. I recommend that you consider joining Wikipedia Basketball to advocate for the list's (re?)inclusion in the NBasketball notability criteria or ask the members why the list is not referenced. Others who have edited the NBasketball segment may also have some idea.--Rpclod (talk) 22:35, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * A potential compromise solution might be to lobby on the talk page associated with WP:NBASKETBALL to modify the third criteria to expand the list to all professional basketball leagues. That is, the play would need to win an award, lead the league in a major statistical category, or - I would recommend similar to the ice hockey criteria - have played at least 200 games.--Rpclod (talk) 22:42, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Regardless, failure to meet the guidelines in NBasketball does not mean that a basketball player is necessarily excluded from coverage. See the preamble to the Notability (sports) page and also the Basic criteria for sports notability. The criteria provide a presumption of notability.  Notability can also be achieved through WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO criteria.  That was essentially my argument in my weak keep !vote.--Rpclod (talk) 22:51, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Special guidelines like WP:NBASKETBALL provide loopholes to achieve notability for a subject that fails to meet the general notability guideline (GNG). If the subject meets GNG, no special criteria are needed.Jacona (talk) 01:03, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Actually, that is not their intent. What NBASKETBALL does is try to give editors an idea of what types of articles likely will meet GNG. Given the number of people who nominate articles for AfD without doing a proper WP:BEFORE search, this is valuable. The actual guideline only contains a handful of leagues (6 domestic leagues and 3 continental leagues) - and the Philippine Basketball Association is not one of them. The SSG also helps with leagues like the Greek League, where more sources are not in English and are hard for non-native speakers to search. If a subject meets NBASKETBALL you can still nominate it for AfD if it doesn’t meet GNG. By the same token, the guideline was written understanding that if a subject meets GNG they don’t have to meet the SSG. There are hundreds of (for example) French League players over time who meet GNG. But since it isn’t all of them (or close to it), it’s not in the guideline. The list Rclod links (“fully professional league”) was created by one user and never agreed to/adopted as the guideline. All players who have appeared in one game for any professional league are not notable. I get tired of people complaining about the SSGs generally and NBASKETBALL specifically. The guideline is pretty accurate and if there are individual cases where an editor disagrees we can discuss them. This article and others from the PBA aren’t covered under it though. That doesn’t mean the subjects aren’t notable, you just need to base decisions on GNG Rikster2 (talk) 09:28, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * By the way, there is a current discussion underway to add the PBA to NBASKETBALL (see here). My request is for someone to do the analysis to see if it is true that all players meet GNG (test the players who don’t receive much playing time, test the historical player who appeared in one game, etc). I am sure this proposal is in response to the recent targeting of player articles from this league. My issue is that while I suspect the league may meet the standard (the PBA enjoys extremely high popularity domestically so my guess is there are a plethora of sources available), the vast majority of PBA articles are either unsourced or contain no independent, reliable sources (only League-published content, for example). This isn’t acceptable and I am sure is why these articles are being “tested.” And rightfully so, it is lazy to create articles and not effectively source them. Rikster2 (talk) 09:38, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry Rikster2, that my attempt to explain the sport-specific guideline offends, that is not my intent. The intent is to show, as you do, that GNG is not in any way overruled by NBASKETBALL. It appears that the nominating editor is attempting to use NBASKETBALL to purge the encyclopedia of notable articles they don't like. Whether the articles include the reliable sources is not a valid reason for deletion, what matters is if they are available. In every single one of these cases multiple reliable sources are easily found, and that has been demonstrated. In some of these, the number of available sources are overwhelming. If one takes any of the popular English-language newspapers from the Philippines and do a search, they'll be easily found. It appears the nominator is just putting PBA articles up for deletion with no real attempt to find sources.Jacona (talk) 13:30, 17 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep Clearly meets WP:GNG. Do a little WP:BEFORE next time. Smartyllama (talk) 19:42, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep – Meets WP:BASIC per a review of available sources. North America1000 04:49, 21 January 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.