Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rhys Hughes


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus and unlikely one will emerge with another relist. StarM 17:17, 13 February 2021 (UTC)      StarM 17:17, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Rhys Hughes

 * – ( View AfD View log )

This page was reported at COIN, where an editor requested deletion. Another user raised notability questions on the talk page five years ago, saying "I'm struggling at the moment to see any of his work that is notable and this article may be a candidate for deletion." I agree that this seems like an autobiography whose subject does not meet WP:GNG or WP:NAUTHOR. Possibly (talk) 22:05, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.  Possibly (talk) 22:05, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions.  Possibly (talk) 22:05, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wales-related deletion discussions.  Possibly (talk) 22:05, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete. His work has garnered minimal coverage in the mainstream media and academic press, and accrued little in the way of industry awards and widespread literary merit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetpea8 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. Don't see evidence this meets WP:GNG or WP:NAUTHOR. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 22:13, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. Article is very poorly sourced. I have looked for additional sources and only been able to find another interview, which I have added. Tacyarg (talk) 22:56, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fails WP:NAUTHOR. Found one review of his book by World Literature Today and another source is just a passing mention.  Ashley  yoursmile!  04:56, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I am going to suggest that the article remains in at least some form as the subject is covered in the Science Fiction Encyclopedia edited by John Clute. http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/hughes_rhys — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.213.175 (talk) 10:14, 26 January 2021 (UTC)  — 82.132.213.175 (talk&#32;•contribs) has made few or no other recent edits outside this topic.
 * Rhys Hughes is an important author. The fact can be gauged by his appearance in World Literature Today: https://www.worldliteraturetoday.org/2017/september/cloud-farming-wales-rhys-hughes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coldsteelpen (talk • contribs) 14:29, 26 January 2021 (UTC)  — Coldsteelpen (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * May I suggest that, before deleting this page, you check Hughes' mentions on one of his publishers' pages, namely Tartarus Press? (http://www.tartaruspress.com/hughes-worming-the-harpy.html) Each of his collections published by Tartarus got excellent reviews, quoted by Tartarus, without, alas, proper links to said reviews. Hughes may be a writer for the happy fews but he nonetheless deserves a Wikipedia page. — Amembo1911 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Delete does not meet WP:GNG or WP:NAUTHOR. - MrOllie (talk) 02:04, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep per the three editors offering a range of evidence of notability, above. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:12, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:GNG and WP:NAUTHOR. I looked at the references listed here, the refs at the bio page, and I hunted for some new ones on my own. Nothing shows Hughes to be a notable author. He's mentioned in passing while discussing other stuff, or a book of his gets reviewed somewhere unimportant . Binksternet (talk) 05:06, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. Sufficient body of work and industry esteem give this guy just enough notability. Binksternet (talk) 09:32, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. I don't see any reliable sources. Bearian (talk) 16:42, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:SIGCOV. Jenyire2 (talk) 05:17, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

I am the writer in question. I note that my Wikipedia page has been nominated for deletion. I have been invited to contribute to the discussion that will decide whether the page remains or is deleted. I wish to state that, contrary to the claim that there are no reviews of my work from respected sources, there are in fact plenty of such reviews. For example Publishers Weekly has reviewed several of my books including: https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-943813-36-0 https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-905784-71-4 among others.

There is a paper on my work by Richard Bleiler in Supernatural Fiction Writers, published by Scribners in 2003 https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Supernatural_Fiction_Writers_Peter_Ackro.html?id=1RjuAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y There is another article on my work in the St James Guide to Horror, Ghost and Gothic Writers published in 1998 https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/St_James_Guide_to_Horror_Ghost_Gothic_Wr.html?id=taERAQAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y

Lots of interviews at respected sites including the Hugo Award winning Lightspeed Magazine (winner in 2014) https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/nonfiction/author-spotlight-rhys-hughes/?fbclid=IwAR35E6NCe5ul1aPrdYEGVcRVHM7xO-7h2pKM3Q4BgJyYq_igBF3tjYvMoW0

There are interviews with me connected with various national newspapers but I have no idea how to reference non-internet sources here. Any help with how to do this will be appreciated.

My work has appeared in many anthologies from big publishers such as this one from Vintage/Penguin https://lithub.com/on-the-biggest-collection-of-fantasy-tales-since-wwii/?fbclid=IwAR2_yOFurD2BIJeexqIkhiswrf2pDweLR0bHRNgTNEPciiHnZ4jXKsc3wo8 This anthology was reviewed by Booklist and my own contribution was highlighted as a standout. Once again I don't know how to reference Booklist, which is not online.

I don't know if any of this has helped my cause at all (which is retain the article in at least some form) but there are many references to my work online. The above is just a tiny selection.

Regards, Rhys92.40.182.220 (talk) 15:50, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the links. I have struck my comment about unimportant reviews; certainly Publishers Weekly is major. But the guideline at WP:AUTHOR asks for the author to have created "a significant or well-known work or collective body of work." How significant or well-known are books that did not sell well and did not get nominated for awards? That's what we are here to gauge. I will be interested to hear from editors who are active at WikiProject Books. Binksternet (talk) 16:24, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

'How significant or well-known are books that did not sell well and did not get nominated for awards?'Interesting question. I am reminded of the admirable (and arguably significant) Max Beerbohm who never got any award of any kind and whose books did not sell well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amembo1911 (talk • contribs) 09:39, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

As for not selling many books... Some of my titles have done better than others. I have done well in Portugal and Greece, for example. I will look for links to the national newspaper articles in those countries that ran features on my work. As for awards: I have often been nominated. I haven't won any yet, that's true.

I found an online link for a Booklist review of The Big Book of Modern Fantasy edited by the VanderMeers and published by Vintage last summer. I thought booklist was only a paper publication but here is the review. In a volume featuring Nabokov, Marquez, et al, I would say that to be singled out as a standout is fairly significant: https://www.booklistonline.com/The-Big-Book-of-Modern-Fantasy-Ann-VanderMeer/pid=9734891?fbclid=IwAR0-LQnb7_Qq5T3xg1d2Qj3jn-SXe48TGOMEhyzNTPJwN_xnrI4q3CxlKT4&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

(I have been favourably reviewed by Booklist often.)

Lots of reviews of my work at Locus, one of the major SF and fantasy resources: https://locusmag.com/2014/07/paul-di-filippo-reviews-scott-nicolay-and-rhys-hughes/ Another example: http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?59423

There have been academic papers and articles on my work in a variety of journals, such as this one from the University of Coimbra: https://eg.uc.pt/handle/10316/87742

There are hundreds of references that exist about my work. I can find links over the coming days, if that is what is required. I never kept a record of all the references to my work but I am sure I can find enough to prove that (a) mainstream media has reviewed my work and presented features on it, (b) there has been academic attention paid to my work, (c) I have been cited as significant by many major writers working in the field of fantasy and science fiction (Samuel Delany, Michael Moorcock, Jeff VanderMeer, etc)

Regards, Rhys Hughes92.40.183.183 (talk) 20:53, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Sincere thanks to the author for presenting his case. However, assuming these are the best references and resources he can cite, I'm not convinced it is enough to sway this discussion in his favour. A large percentage of the material he presents is unverifiable, other examples are many years old, and still others sound like pure bluster ("There are interviews with me connected with various national newspapers" - no accompanying links). No doubt any active writer, even the lowly self-published, would be able to provide numerous sources where their work, or references to it, can be found. The task then becomes to gauge how popular and well-received those sources are. Publisher's Weekly is a good source, but features dozens if not hundreds of book reviews each month, and inclusion does not automatically grant a wikipedia page. I am of the opinion that as a resource, Wikipedia should hold itself to a higher standard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetpea8 (talk • contribs) 21:06, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Article about my work in Diario de Noticias, the largest Portuguese national newspaper: https://www.dn.pt/arquivo/2007/uma-mulher-que-e-metade-peixe-e-outras-fabulosas-bizarrias-989188.html A link to a photo of the article in question: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kQ15IFX9ZWU/Tj2KHrHxZ2I/AAAAAAAADs4/UxRjKJI-4qE/s1600/DN%2B22%2Bweb.jpg

A second article in the same newspaper: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/129/3649/1600/DN6a_171106.jpg

A third: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7873/687/320/Di%3F%3Frio%20de%20Not%3F%3Fcias.jpg

I will look for other articles that have appeared in Le Monde, El Pais and other national newspapers in the coming days.

One of my books selected as among a year's ten best SF books on the SF Site. Selected by Jeff VanderMeer: https://www.sfsite.com/lists/jeff2002.htm Jeff VanderMeer wrote the afterword to my novel Engelbecht Again. I will provide photos for that very soon.

(Same for Michael Moorcock's foreword to my book Stories from a Lost Anthology.)

A lengthy article by John Clute. One of many he has written about my work: http://strangehorizons.com/non-fiction/columns/scores-9/

Many reviews by Evelyn C. Leeper of my work: http://leepers.us/evelyn/reviews/hughes.htm

These are significant writers and critics (check them out on Wikipedia if you don't know who they are).

More links to follow...

Rhys Hughes92.40.182.75 (talk) 21:45, 1 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Are there any independent biographical sources? Book reviews might (depending on how many and how prominent) demonstrate notability of individual books, but per WP:NOTINHERITED it would be much more helpful to have sources about the person, not the books. - MrOllie (talk) 21:51, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I would have thought the entry on the SFE was a significant source: http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/hughes_rhys Edited by John Clute, David Langford, Peter Nicholls and Graham Sleight, this is *the* definitive resource for science-fiction.

I have already linked to two Encyclopedias earlier: The Scribner's and St James volumes, both significant encyclopedic resources.

I will provide more links tomorrow. Rhys Hughes92.40.182.75 (talk) 22:41, 1 February 2021 (UTC)


 * As you know, you are a contributor to sf-encyclopedia, so it isn't an independent source. - MrOllie (talk) 23:20, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Just like The New York Times isn't an independent source regarding Bernie Sanders, because he's contributed op-ed pieces to it. . . . not exactly a sound argument! The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006.  Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong! (talk) 05:49, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep. Coverage, even summary coverage, in reference works by Clute and Joshi should be enough to establish notability, and the discussion above demonstrates more than sufficient other coverage. It's really unfortunate that we have so many editors who want to punish the subject's perceived misbehavior by damaging the encyclopedia. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006.  Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong! (talk) 06:04, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I have edited a total of ONE entry for the SFE (on Don Marquis) and that was in September 2018, whereas the entry on me dates back to 2011 and has been regularly updated since (last update March 2020). My entry on Marquis is here: http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/marquis_don

But returning to my point above, the SFE is THE major reference work for notable writers in science fiction. It is absolutely an independent biographical resource and the most important one in the field. First published by Granada in 1979 it has its own Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Encyclopedia_of_Science_Fiction

Talking about John Clute, one of the main SFE editors, he wrote an article about my work that is included in his book of essays Pardon this Intrusion: https://www.beccon.org/B/pardon.html

Lots of reviews by Clute for many of my books. You'll have to do a control f search for my name on this list (his bibliography is large): http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?147

Lots of reviews on Locus, including this one by Paul Di Filippo which is of a book of mine that features an afterword by Michael Cisco: https://locusmag.com/2016/04/paul-di-filippo-reviews-hughes-aylett-rucker-sterling/

Jeff VanderMeer's article on my Book Engelbrecht Again appeared in his book of essays Why Should I Cut Your Throat but there is a short extract online here: https://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/16/a-perfect-holiday-gift-engelbrecht-again-from-dead-letter-press/

Lots of mentions in the Washington Post. Here is one: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/entertainment/books/2002/04/07/a-new-golden-age-and-a-flood-of-titles-from-the-kind-of-small-publishers-that-first-brought-the-world-sf-paul-di-filippo/2eef92f4-a19e-482c-82b9-f9312f7ed9fa/ Here is another: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/entertainment/books/2003/06/08/from-the-southern-grotesque-to-the-collapse-of-distant-galaxies-a-tour-of-brave-new-fictional-worlds/234f87f0-2a3f-4bbe-9fb6-b00e088653af/

Those are brief mentions, but there are a great many such mentions in many national newspapers in many countries. Here is one from Michael Moorcock in the Guardian that singles me out: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/jun/15/featuresreviews.guardianreview28

Michael Bishop wrote a piece on me for the New York Review of Science Fiction: https://www.nyrsf.com/NYRSF.248.Index.xls

CafeBabel did a piece on me: https://cafebabel.com/en/article/rhys-hughes-the-welsh-are-very-proud-5ae006b3f723b35a145e107f/ CafeBabel is funded by the European Union and has its own Wikipedia page here: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafebabel.com It is part of the official Erasmus project.

Articles from Le Monde, El Pais and Os Meus Livros coming soon. I have to get them photographed first then upload the photos and then provide links to the photos, as they aren't online and I have no idea how to reference a paper source. Rhys Hughes92.40.182.0 (talk) 20:54, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment Some of these may be ok, but If I put all the text that mentions Hughes in the Washington Post and the Guardian together (links provided by you above), I get
 * "Lately, as desperately needed antidotes to nerd-friendly space fiction and inklingoid fantasy, writers such as David Britton, Rhys Hughes, Jeff VanderMeer and Tim Etchells have set their fiction in invented worlds satirically parallel to our own, inhabited by eccentric characters enthusiastically embracing irrationality and paradox."
 * "ranging from Rhys Hughes's "Depressurized Ghost Story," a gloriously demented S.J. Perelman romp..."
 * "such as "The Toes of the Sun" by Rhys Hughes."
 * These are what we call trivial mentions. Possibly (talk) 21:10, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * No, these are not 'trivial mentions'. I stand with Hullaballoo Wolfowitz on this. You don't 'trivially' get compared to Perelman nor are mentioned together with VanderMeer for nothing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amembo1911 (talk • contribs) 22:41, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * on Wikipedia the items I mentioned are exactly what we refer to as trivial mentions. See WP:RS and WP:SIGCOV. Are you the same account as the IP posting as Rhys Hughes above? Possibly (talk) 04:18, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Interesting comment here concerning the author in question popping up with a different user name in an effort to verify his own work. There are definitely similarities in tone, and the user in question doesn't seem to have contributed much elswhere suggesting a personal interest of some description. Would tie in with earlier suggestions that he edits his page himself, presenting a significant COI and another possible reason for deletion in addition to the reason currently being discussed. Food for thought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetpea8 (talk • contribs) 01:27, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Considerable source material has been presented since most of the !votes were posted. Relisting to allow analysis of these.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde (Talk) 03:47, 3 February 2021 (UTC) https://www.worldliteraturetoday.org/2017/september/cloud-farming-wales-rhys-hughes and along with other refs provided by the author above show he meets WP:Basic Davidstewartharvey (talk) 13:51, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep The current article refs are not really enough to show sigcov. However his book Cloud Farming in Wales is reviewed by World Literature Today,

I still don't know how to reference books and journals that haven't been digitalised, so I had to take photos, upload them to a blog as images, and now I am linking to them:

Firstly an article on my work in an encyclopedia edited by E.F. Bleiler: https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/34911821/4938302140671634932

Secondly, a lengthy article on my work that appeared in Os Meus Livros, the premier book-related magazine of Portugal: https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/34911821/5349456833246736943

Does being a guest of honour at literary festivals and conventions count for anything? I was one of the guests of honour at the International Travel Writing Festival in Matosinhos: https://www.cm-matosinhos.pt/frontoffice/pages/242?news_id=702

I was the main guest of honour at the Borges Festival in Moncao: https://www.jn.pt/arquivo/2006/congresso-vai-reflectir-a-literatura-nacional-548301.html

I was a guest of honour at Hispacon in Seville: http://www.concatenation.org/conrev/hispacon2007.html

I have been guest of honour at several Forum Fantasticos: https://forumfantastico.wordpress.com/2006/10/08/rhys-hughes/

For the second year running I am one of the judges for the CWA (Crime Writers Association) Dagger Awards. The CWA is the most significant crime fiction organisation in the world: https://thecwa.co.uk/the-daggers/categories/international

The CWA believes that I am 'prestigious', which is nice to know, even if it is only a 'trivial' mention: https://www.facebook.com/CrimeWritersAssociation/posts/2204301679624749

Does appearing on Portuguese radio count? https://www.mixcloud.com/ContosN%C3%A3oVendem/tr%C3%AAs-contos-de-donald-barthelme-lidos-por-rhys-hughes/

Regards, Rhys Hughes92.40.182.1 (talk) 20:00, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Most of the above are either very dated or very obscure sources, often both simultaneously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetpea8 (talk • contribs) 16:06, 4 February 2021 (UTC)


 * :::: I am most emphatically not Rhys Hughes. I happen to have read a few books by him, back in real life—being an amateur of weird literature and closely following the activities of such publishers as Tartarus Press and The Eibonvale Press.

Amembo1911 (talk) 20:49, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep The advocates of 'keep' were tasked with demonstrating fulfilment of WP:AUTHOR criterion #3 "... a significant or well-known work or collective body of work ..." It appears that they have sufficiently succeeded in doing so. Basically, there are reviews. — Alalch Emis (talk) 07:04, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep: Plenty of publications and sources, more than meets WP:AUTHOR. -- HistoricalAccountings (talk) 20:49, 11 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.