Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richard J. Notte


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus to delete/does not meet notability criterion. Jujutacular (talk) 02:32, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Richard J. Notte

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Delete per AfD/Melvin P. McCree and AfD/Jeffrey Brohn which lead to the deletion of county level officials that were involved in corrupt (stemming from one party rule: nepotism - difficult to source and theft that was source). Article only has local coverage as myfoxtampabay.com story about his death was by the Fox affiliate in Detroit and was not a significant article about Notte. Sterling Heights is not a global city and Notte is only a former city mayor of a non-global city. Spshu (talk) 18:03, 25 June 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete a key factor here is that Sterling Heights has a council/manager form of government, that mayor is a figure head who is no more notable than other members of the city council.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:43, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment I have to wonder about the sincerity of this nomination since it was made by the one person who opposed the mentioned deletions, and has all the marks of a pointy nomination. However I still support the deletion.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:49, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:GNG and WP:POLITICIAN. --MelanieN (talk) 03:36, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, KaisaL (talk) 15:12, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:08, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Michigan-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:08, 3 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete Umm, stuff like He was the longest serving incumbent mayor of a 'big city' in Michigan until his death in 2014. is no indication of notability actually. Should he have held some national record for being a longtime mayor, I may have considered. Otherwise, mayors of cities are not notable in general. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 15:33, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - longtime mayor of a bigger suburb. Bearian (talk) 18:55, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I think Bearian fails to recognize that in Sterling Heights the mayor is a figure head. He has no more power than any other member of the city council. If we are going to keep this article, we should create articles on every member of the city council.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:24, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete. The "automatic notability because size of city" consideration for mayors applies only to cities that use the powerful/executive mayor form of government, and not to weak/ceremonial mayors of places that use the council-manager structure. In that latter type of city, a mayor gets a Wikipedia article only if he can be really solidly sourced. But this isn't sourced nearly well enough to clear the bar. I would caution Spshu that the "global city" condition applies to city councillors, not to mayors — Spshu is quite clearly trying to do a WP:POINT backlash against the results on Brohn and McCree, which is not appropriate. But despite the nomination being based on a misguided principle, I can't oppose it because for the reasons I've already stated the actual standard for mayors isn't applicable here either. Bearcat (talk) 19:00, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment. The mayor is a city councilor in this city, just a separate class, so I would caution Bearcat, to stop continually harassing me and ignoring the rules of discussion. The outcome that you cite states it applies to Municipal politicians ("Municipal politicians are not inherently notable just for being in politics, but neither are they inherently non-notable just because they are in local politics.") thus mayors and city councilor members. Which as Lambert has back me up that the mayor is both. Second, you have a history of misrepresenting the rules to make me look bad. This is not a WP:POINT but the logical conclusion of caring out the results of said AFD. If the principle was so misguided than why in the world did you bring it up in one of those AFDs? Spshu (talk) 20:32, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Let me explain this one more time: the standard for a mayor passing NPOL is "regional prominence"; the standard for a city councillor passing NPOL is "global city". The difference here is not the fact that Sterling Heights isn't a global city, because that's not the standard that applies to mayors — the difference is that Sterling Heights is a city that uses the council-manager form of government, and thus its mayor doesn't have the same level of executive power that many other mayors have. A city half the size of Sterling Heights can get its mayor over NPOL if the sourcing is there, because a mayor does not have to pass the same "global city" condition as a city councillor does — but a mayor does have to serve in an "executive mayor" system, not a "council-manager" system, to get the mayoral pass. Kindly note that I agreed with the deletion, but just for different reasons than the ones you provided. And I most certainly do not have any history of "misrepresenting the rules" or going out of my way to "make you look bad", either — Brohn and McCree were the first times, as far as I can recall, that you and I have ever interacted in an AFD, and I most certainly did not "misrepresent" anything in those discussions and neither am I "misrepresenting" anything here. Bearcat (talk) 14:34, 11 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete The Mayor in a city manager form of government leads the council meetings and performs ceremonial functions. These Mayors should not have a presumption of notability. as independently elected Mayors might. It does not appear that the subject would meet WP:GNG. Enos733 (talk) 02:35, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete instead as none of this amounts to confirming his own needed notability, I'm not finding anything else convincing. SwisterTwister   talk  06:38, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep he certainly passes the WP:has-an-obituary-in-a-big-city-daily test. Note that theSun-times obit states thet he was the "first Mayor to be directly elected; and that the headline reads, "known for efforts to salvage Chrysler assembly plant in his city."  Also, Detroit News here: .  Here:  is more Detroit News coverage of his career.  Here:  is is coverage in the The Macomb Daily.  Here:  is the obit in the Detroit Sun-Times, and one from regional TV station: .  Note also that the article has been here since 2009.  While the standards set forth regarding the size a city needs to be for its Mayor to automatically qualify for notability is useful for easy keeps, the standard is not especially useful in determining whether  the mayor of a smaller city is notable. This one passes  WP:ANYBIO.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:40, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment. Where is this "WP:has-an-obituary-in-a-big-city-daily test" as I do not see it at WP:ANYBIO? Notte has not "received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times." Nor has he "made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field."
 * It does not matter whether he was the first elected mayor. The Detroit News, Macomb Daily and a TV station (Detroit Sun-Times is the same as the TV station) are all regional news entities, as in the two AfD for county register of deeds (in that case the regional/state Flint Journal/mlive.com), regional newspapers do not grant "world at large attention" enough for notability. Spshu (talk) 17:21, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Impact the Chrysler plant referred to in the obits is the Sterling Heights Assembly Plant, giving Notte credit for a major impact on a Chrysler plant. I searched proquest news archive on    and came up with  slew of articles on this.  Chrysler announced a plant closure in 2008.  But here's a passage form 2010 "Chrysler LLC's Sterling Heights Assembly Plant (SHAP), targeted for closure just 18 months ago, now has new life following the Sterling Heights City Council's action Wednesday evening paving the way for the automaker's $850 million investment in the plant for renovations, new equipment, machinery and special tooling....City Council unanimously approved a Brownfield Redevelopment Plant for the plant that will support Chrysler's application for state of Michigan Brownfield Tax Credit, as well as tax abatements on the automaker's new personal property and building renovation investments. The abatements will generate $13.2 million in new city taxes over the next ten years.... The end result was Chrysler's decision to invest nearly $1 billion in the plant, the largest single business investment in the city's history, according to Mayor Richard J. Notte." who is credited with engineering the deal.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:10, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Reopening a auto plant is not "part of the enduring historical record" in the governmental field. Spshu (talk) 17:21, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm out of time for now. There is so much coverage of Notte's role in a series of complex deals that turned the Chrysler thing around that it will take more time than I have now to sift through them.  I don't even know what happened after 2010 yet.  And there seems to have been more than one plant  involved, perhaps not all of them Chrysler.  It does, at least, seem clear that he was not some sort of mere figurehead, but a very active mayor and successful indeed, whatever the specifics of the Sterling Heights political system may be.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:16, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * He was a figurehead by charter thus any such claims of that he made the deals happen on his own are false or signs of corruption. And note your quote indicates "the Sterling Heights City Council" took the action not Notte by himself. Notte as mayor is generally the spokesperson for city council, so it is easy for the media to grant credit to him. Spshu (talk) 17:21, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I am sorry if I implied that he did so in such a way that it can be interpreted as a "sign of corruption," but in non-autocracies, it is in fact common to credit legislation and other political accomplishments to the individual or small group with the leadership and skill to hammer out coalitions that get things done. I assume this to be what the newspapers mean when they credit Notte notable among the politicians and businessmen who kept those factories running.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:24, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Here's the short course, via Craine's ."Sterling Heights Mayor Richard Notte dies at 76; Notte known for efforts to salvage Chrysler assembly plant in his city".E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:08, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Crain's Detroit Business is still a regional newspaper thus not enough. Spshu (talk) 17:21, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah, well, now that I figured out what at least one big accomplishment of his administration was, it's simple to find coverage of Notte's activities in media outside the region. (City tries to hang on amid U.S. auto industry's collapse, Linebaugh, Kate. Wall Street Journal, Europe edition [Brussels] 06 Apr 2009: 4.) Although I do think that coverage in the Detroit Free Press - the largest paper in Michigan - cannot be classed as local, but must be regarded as regional, or, statewide, Free Press coverage here: .E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:24, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 22:40, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note that obituaries in major daily newspapers are regarded as supporting notability. One discussion here: . Articles are routinely started at the time of death, and sourced to obits in major newspapers.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:06, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete: No, they most certainly do not. My grandfather had an obituary in the Boston Globe, and bless his soul, but he was a pipefitter and a church sexton with zero chance of meeting the GNG.  This guy just doesn't meet any notability criteria, period.  Nha Trang  Allons! 17:59, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * While I am sorry to hear that your grandfather has passed away, you are laboring under a misapprehension.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:06, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Not in the least. Got anything better than a seven year old discussion between four editors to back up your assertion?  Like an actual guideline?  Nha Trang  Allons! 17:46, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Here:, and here:, and especially here: : "We choose to write an obituary when it’s clear that the person in question had made a significant impact in a particular field, on the larger society or some segment of it, on the country, or even on the world. If the individual meets that test, then his or her death is news that we feel our national readership should know about. In that sense we operate no differently from any other news department at the paper.".  This is why obits in major newspapers validate notability.   E.M.Gregory (talk) 08:51, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, many papers, including the Detroit Free Press flags obits not written as journalism with the words, "Reader Submitted."E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Reply: This really should not be as difficult as all of that, and I'm trying to guess exactly why you're working so hard to obscure or deflect the point. Demonstrate that, as you have claimed, that obituaries in major daily newspapers are regarded as supporting notability. Why you would possibly think external links would have any bearing on this question I have no idea at all.  Nha Trang  Allons! 18:00, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Because they are a form of feature article on steroids; editors assign them not on the basis of interesting-at-this-moment, like a feature story, but on the grounds that they have evaluated an individual like and deem it of significant and enduring important, to a field, a region, or a nation. The articles I link to explain this. If it is not somewhere in the rulebook, it ought to be.  And it is often cited at AFD bio pages as though it were.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:26, 20 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Note While many newspapers print paid death notices written by the family, (for example, this paid section of the Boston Globe ) and many local or small town papers run obituaries of just about everybody in town,  major newspapers like the Boston Globe and the Detroit Free Press are extremely selective about the individuals they choose to run an obituary about, the individual must be judged notable by the editors and the obituary assigned to a journalist.  The journalist will interview the family and colleagues, but details are verified and the copy at the Boston Globe is produced by the paper, not by the family.  This is why a newspaper written obituary in a major daily is regarded as evidence of notability.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:06, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - Elected mayor of a city of over 100,000 population. Carrite (talk) 02:02, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * But the mayor is a figurehead. He is really a member of the city council, who serves as its president. He has no added power as mayor. Are you prepared to claim that all members of the city council are notable? I as a city resident am not, and so say delete the article on Notte.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:34, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete and Redirect to Sterling Heights, Michigan — Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the primary notability criterion of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject of the article". The individual does not have significant coverage to warrant an article. Redirect to Sterling Heights, Michigan. Does not pass WP:GNG or WP:POLITICIAN. ✉cookiemonster✉ 𝚨755𝛀   18:09, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete as mayors are not automatically notable and I can't find sources to demonstrate notability. The crainsdetroit obit appears to be newspaper-written but more is needed to meet GNG. Ca2james (talk) 22:31, 27 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.