Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richard Shaw (footballer born 1977)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. There hasn't been any convincing proof presented that MISL is a fully-professional league, and the subject doesn't seem to otherwise satisfy WP:GNG or WP:NFOOTY. — Mr. Stradivarius  (have a chat) 11:03, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Richard Shaw (footballer born 1977)

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  Stats )

PROD contested by with no explanation. A previous version of the article was deleted at AfD in May 2012. Fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Mattythewhite (talk) 01:23, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Mattythewhite (talk) 01:25, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 01:26, 6 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep (but rename) The article claims he has played at a professional senior level for Blackpool F.C. (which is cited by a team photograph) and Fleetwood Town F.C.. As these are teams competing in leagues mentioned in WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues, and do not appear to have dropped below the equivalent standard during his time at each, he is presumed notable per the guideline in WP:NFOOTBALL - "Players who have appeared, and managers who have managed, in a fully professional league, will generally be regarded as notable". -- Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   09:12, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * To pass WP:NFOOTBALL, you need to have actually played in a fully pro league, not just be signed to a club in a FPL. There is no evidence that he did play. And just for info, Fleetwood Town only became members of a FPL for the first time in their history barely a month ago (promoted to League Two for the current season). Mattythewhite (talk) 12:04, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm confused now. The article states he "signed a two year YTS contract with Blackpool." followed by "After seven years at Blackpool F.C.". What was he doing in his last five years? Of course, it would help massively if this paragraph was actually backed up by some reliable sources. -- Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   14:54, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Page updated the MISL major indoor soccer league is a professional recognized league part of the United Soccer Leagues USL which is stated as notably in the list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football and therefore should pass WP:NFootball USL Onthepitch (talk) 12:19, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No longer listed at WP:FPL as the source provided did not confirm the league's pro status. Mattythewhite (talk) 17:33, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Incorrect - source was already under USL Professional League and source deleted because of this not because as you state did not confirm leagues pro status!???Onthepitch (talk) 20:05, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep This English dude is playing in a professional soccer league in the States in the MISL - USL United Soccer Leagues which is an awesome league. English people should be proud and supportive of a fellow citizen and his achievement.Soccermad Tom NY (talk) 12:42, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Single-purpose account whose argument is essentially nationalism with no foundation in WP guideline or policy. Mattythewhite (talk) 17:33, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * incorrect facts without evidence. It is listed and has foundation, Incorrect on account that it was listed already under USL Professional League, please go to WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues click on USL Professional League it is part of this League []Onthepitch (talk) 20:05, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Definition of Nationalism? Nationalism is a political ideology that involves a strong identification of a group of individuals with a nation. We are talking about soccer?? The USA has different Soccer Leagues essentially, every state is a big as some countries. Please be more supportive.Onthepitch (talk) 20:16, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Matty any help with this article that you can give I would really appreciate, thanks for your input and updating paragraphs many thanks!2.216.90.70 (talk) 21:12, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - he never actually played in a fully-pro league (being signed to the club is simply NOT enough) so fails WP:NFOOTBALL; also fails WP:GNG due to lack of significant coverage. GiantSnowman 07:36, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Per my comment above, it doesn't actually specify whether he did or didn't play for Blackburn. Of course, that makes a "Delete" argument stronger due to lack of sources. -- Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   09:37, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd recommend checking the many, probably hundreds, of AfDs where football player articles have been deleted as they have not made an appearance in an FPL, despite being contracted a club in a FPL. Here is a random example; the article for this player was deleted despite him being contracted to a club in a FPL (Celtic). I think the wording of WP:NFOOTBALL makes it pretty clear that the subject needs to have actually played; "Players who have appeared, and managers who have managed, in a fully professional league" (my bold). I don't see how being on the books of a FPL club can be interpreted as being the same as appearing in a FPL. Mattythewhite (talk) 13:13, 7 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I have read this article and have to say that I disagree with the above comments. Possibly Hurried to conclusion: The text in the article has never stated he played for Blackburn? Or at senior level for Blackpool FC. Or played in his Blackpool contract days in a fully pro league. And therefore quoting ( being signed to the club is simply not enough)is not required for this edit, and the article did not state that he actually played for the first team? Quote: Players who have appeared.

The article does state his history which facilitates the article and his journey as an individual currently with significant coverage / evidence who is a professional soccer player playing in a league notable in the guidelines and passes WP:NFOOTBALL as the player plays in a league listed in Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leaguesGoalcity (talk) 20:25, 7 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Do Not Delete he plays in a fully-pro league and therefore passes fully-pro league within the USL Professional Leagues and there is significant coverage.Onthepitch (talk) 10:10, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 *  Do not delete  The soccer player is a prefessional in the USL MISL and a well known TV Commentator in soccer, At present he plays professional soccer a recognized soccer league which is contained in the fully-pro league The article is just stating his history to current status.Soccermad Tom NY (talk) 10:22, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 *  Keep / Do Not Delete  The Soccer player plays professional soccer in a recognized soccer league which is in the fully-pro league USL Professional League MISL this is now, not the past which seems to be the main focusSoccermad Tom NY (talk) 15:21, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Just as a matter of housekeeping, you don't need to write "Keep / Do Not Delete" or similar before each comment, since you have already !voted. Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 15:26, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep passes WP:NFOOTBALL Goalcity (talk) 17:27, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep I agree with the above comments to much focus on his past history. I watched him in his last soccer game, a great player and he autographed my kidz jerseys. This article should not be deleted and it meets the criteria as he plays soccer in a fully professional league in NY, it passes WP:NFOOTBALL, as he actually plays in a fully pro league Mike Syracuse (talk) 18:22, 7 September 2012 (UTC) — Mike Syracuse (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Delete – no evidence of notability, as he has never played in a fully professional league and there is no significant coverage about him in reliable independent sources. – Kosm  1  fent  14:52, 8 September 2012 (UTC)


 * KEEP Evidence is clear He Plays in a fully professional league and there is significant coverage / Notability about him in reliable sources - Passes WP:NFOOTBALL BuddyMC (talk) 15:19, 8 September 2012 (UTC) — BuddyMC (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Professional leagues do exsist outside the U.K not just by the F.A but also by United States Soccer Federation and the soccer games are televised here in the U.S.A like soccer games in the U.K Onthepitch (talk) 16:05, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The article does pass WP:NFOOTBALL and is listed as a fully pro league in WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues it states quote - The United Soccer Leagues (USL) Professional soccer leagues with teams in the United States, Canada and the Caribbean. Leagues currently organized are the USL Pro, the USL Premier Development League, the W-League, Major Indoor Soccer League. It is directly affiliated with the United States Soccer Federation, the United States Adult Soccer Association and the Canadian Soccer Association.
 * Comment - the MISL is NOT listed at WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues. GiantSnowman 16:16, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Incorrect yes it is listed in WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues its leagues comes under USL Professional League / United Soccer Leagues.

The United Soccer Leagues (USL) Professional soccer leagues with teams in the United States, Canada and the Caribbean. Leagues currently organized are the USL Pro, the USL Premier Development League, the W-League, Major Indoor Soccer League. It is directly affiliated with the United States Soccer Federation, the United States Adult Soccer Association and the Canadian Soccer Association. please go to WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues click on USL Professional League it is part of this League []Onthepitch (talk) 16:34, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No, it is NOT listed there. The only American leagues listed are MSL, NASL, and USL Pro - no mention of MISL whatsoever. Just because United Soccer Leagues organises both USL Pro and MISL does not mean that MISL is therefore automatically fully-professional - that is ridiculous logic. GiantSnowman 16:43, 8 September 2012 (UTC)


 * yes, incorrect it is it comes under USL leagues. your logic is not researched! its leagues comes under USL Professional League / United Soccer Leagues.

The United Soccer Leagues (USL) Professional soccer leagues with teams in the United States, Canada and the Caribbean. Leagues currently organized are the USL Pro, the USL Premier Development League, the W-League, Major Indoor Soccer League. It is directly affiliated with the United States Soccer Federation, the United States Adult Soccer Association and the Canadian Soccer Association. Listed is USL it has Professional leagues in this! please see http://misl.uslsoccer.com/About/index_E.html for additional info!Onthepitch (talk) 16:59, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

it states The United Soccer Leagues (USL) are a collection of five leagues spanning the lower divisions of men's professional soccer.Onthepitch (talk) 17:20, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Additional also see- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Soccer_Federation which is the U.S.A's version of the F.A The United States Soccer Federation (USSF), commonly referred to as U.S. Soccer, is the official governing body of the sport of soccer in the United States. Please look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Soccer_Federation and go down the page to Professional leagues -
 * United Soccer Leagues organizes both professional and amateur leagues. Any evidence in independent reliable sources that the indoor league is fully professional? – Kosm  1  fent  17:25, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Please find a reliable source which verifies your claims - as I've said, the MISL is not listed at WP:FPL, and just because it is organised by a company which also organises professional leagues does not make it professional itself! GiantSnowman 17:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Independant sources - Please see reliable sources of evidence that the MISL is a professional league 1. The U.S.A 's equivalant to F.A - http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx, http://misl.uslsoccer.com/About/index_E.html , http://www.usindoor.com/articles/soccernews/misl-live.php , http://www.usindoor.com/sport/soccer/history/  Onthepitch (talk) 18:19, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * None of those are independent or confirm that the league is fully-professional. GiantSnowman 18:25, 8 September 2012 (UTC)


 * This is the F.A in the U.S.A http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx  Please help what type of sources would you like? Onthepitch (talk) 18:30, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Reliable, third-party sources - please see WP:RS, WP:V and WP:GNG. GiantSnowman 18:52, 8 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. Subject has not played in a league listed as fully professional, nor is there evidence of his receiving enough significant media coverage to pass the general notability guideline. The only independent sources cited in the article are name-checks in local newspaper match reports dating back to when he played for Kendal in English non-League football. Please understand that fully professional means more than professional. A fully professional league's players play football for a living, receiving a salary for doing so that is enough to support themselves and their families for the whole year, not just for the playing season, without the need to have a second job. It takes more than use of the word "professional" on pages about the MISL to verify that to be the case. Struway2 (talk) 20:29, 8 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Do Not Delete - Incorrect we are not talking about the players past - The article does state his history which facilitates the article and the story of his journey to the present as an individual who is currently Now a professional soccer player playing in a league notable in the guidelines and passes WP:NFOOTBALL. Are you stating that a professional soccer player can not have other interests, players can - even though are paid very highly! can be CEO's of a company, be a TV commentator or publish a book??? very bizarre statement!! As discussed earlier the subject plays in a professional league and passes  which is listed! There seems to be rash lack of knowledge and understanding about leagues in other parts of the world! [[User:Onthepitch|Onthepitch (talk) 21:34, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Please don't keep putting "Do Not Delete": when the closing admin makes their decision, they'll consider the validity of the arguments presented, not count the repetitions. My comments concerned the definition of "fully professional league", which some of the participants here appear unaware of: namely, the requirement for all the players playing in it be paid enough that they don't need a second job. Because no convincing reliable source for the MISL being fully professional has been presented, despite what has been repeated above, it is not listed at WP:FPL (apart from the brief periods when one of the participants at this AfD added it). Of course footballers can and do have other interests, whether financially rewarding or not: that isn't the point. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand your thoughts and comment but this is a fully professional league - players train every day and this is there main job! but your definition is not stated in WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues, but it does state at the top of the article quote: see WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues  The lists are currently incomplete and some entries are lacking sources  Unfortunately it appears only english people are objecting! and therefore I believe there is a lack of knowldge unfortunately U.S.A sport / Soccer appears not be anyones specialty! again quote  The lists are currently incomplete and some entries are lacking sources   America is vast each state is basically as big as most countries it has different Professional leagues and the different leagues come under and are controlled by the USA's F.A  Please see http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx  More sources will be added / USL is listed and is recognized by millions In the USA. thanks! Onthepitch (talk) 17:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * In October 2011, the owner of Mr Shaw's team was quoted in the Post-Standard as expecting his player payroll to be "about $200,000". For an 18-man roster, that averages out at $11,000 per man. Over a 4-month season, $11,000 is nothing special as US earnings go, but over a year, it isn't anywhere close to a living wage. If those are sort of salaries the Silver Knights are paying, then the MISL isn't fully professional. Please understand that while many editors think playing in a "fully professional" league isn't a sound method of assessing player notability, for a subject whose article doesn't demonstrate the sort of non-trivial coverage in independent sources needed to pass the general notability guideline, it's what we've got, and this isn't the place to challenge it. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 19:28, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Owners / Managers are not always going to correctly divulge information regarding wage structures! Again as you stated before your definition for reasoning has no foundation or is evident in wikipedia or the net! it is you personal opinion and is not sourced founded and or has no grounds YOUR statement - fully professional means more than professional. A fully professional league's players play football for a living, receiving a salary for doing so that is enough to support themselves and their families for the whole year, not just for the playing season, without the need to have a second job.: Bizarre personal statement - please contact the USA's FA and inform them that you are correct and that their governing body the the same as the F.A are incorrect and wrong ?????http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx Onthepitch (talk) 20:08, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete: He has never played in a fully-professional league and therefore fails WP:NFOOTY and has not received significant independent coverage so more importantly he also fails WP:GNG. Hope the closing admin takes no notice of the blatant meatpuppetry above. BigDom (talk) 17:27, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep (but maybe rename To Richard Shaw (Professional Soccer Player born 1977) it does pass WP:NFOOTBALL it is a professional League and Recognized. NY Tanner (talk) 20:58, 9 September 2012 (UTC) — NY Tanner (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Delete: As an American who lives in America and studies the US Soccer structure carefully (needed for when pages for NASL etc are created) I will say that the MISL is not fully-professional in fact the league is not even close to professional. I know players who have to get a 2nd job just to support themselves. Some of them do it for recreation. As for this guy, there is no evidence in this article that he has ever played in a fully-professional league so why is there a reason to keep. Heck even if there is evidence I would say delete, the article is in such bad shape that it can barely stand. Now a message for the closing admin, take into thought that NFOOTY says that the player must have (hypothetically) played at least 1 second in a fully-pro league. Is there anything in the article that states that or proves it. That should help you decide on whether to delete or keep. Cheers. --Arsenalkid700 (talk) 17:48, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * This is embarrassing NOT AN AMERICAN states born in London - yes might live their now? No evidence of Knowledge of all leagues within the USA otherwise! would not state comments without evidence! 1. which players do you know that have a second job and who cares????. What statement states anywhere that professional soccer players cant have a second job! Of course your so correct and the USA's version of the F.A http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx is WRONG and your right!!!!! Embarrasing!!! its nice to know that there are more negitive contributors on wikipedia than positive ones! Soccer players and this individual in this professional league do recieve significant coverage and does not fail WP:GNG. I hope that the admin takes notice of unpolite comments who comment without no complete knowledge of the Soccer leagues in the world and USA!!! Maybe someone should contact http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx  and tell them as one comment stated that they are blatant meatpuppetry for having these professional leagues! It is obvious individuals are comparing to the big main leagues ie MSL, Premier League and dont back up their comments with evidence!! It is human nature I suppose to be negative and mock a article than to support and advise! Onthepitch (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No I was born here. I do have family in London but thats it (thus why I am a fan of Arsenal). Also speaking of embarrassment I do find your lack of formatting hilarious and also by your logic and the source you gave me the USL PREMIER DEVELOPMENT LEAGUE is a fully-professional league when we all know it is not. Really give me better sources. All it says is that the USL controls the MISL and that is it. Where does it say professional for the MISL directly. Honestly from all these fails I am wondering if you are in fact Richard Shaw because why else would you feel so passionate about this article? --Arsenalkid700 (talk) 19:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - article is about a footballer who hasn't played in a fully pro league or represented his country at senior level, which means that it fails WP:NFOOTY. Also fails WP:GNG, due to lack of significant coverage in reliable sources. Mentoz86 (talk) 19:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx http://indoorsoccernews.blogspot.co.uk/ http://misl.uslsoccer.com/home/661325.html Onthepitch (talk) 19:32, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * incorrect / KEEP Again negativity please support, individuals need to be 100% and research the league before commenting! if you are a fellow american please see the below and advise not mock and be supportive. Im sorry not all contributors are as good as you when formatting so please support and help! thanks!
 * You've already been asked to stop adding duplicate !votes, please can you stop it once and for all -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:19, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The article does pass WP:NFOOTBALL and is listed as a fully pro league in WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues it states quote - The United Soccer Leagues (USL) Professional soccer leagues with teams in the United States, Canada and the Caribbean. Leagues currently organized are the USL Pro, W-League, Major Indoor Soccer League. It is directly affiliated with the United States Soccer Federation, the United States Adult Soccer Association and the Canadian Soccer Association. Soccermad Tom NY (talk) 19:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep He Plays in a fully professional league and there is significant coverage. Billy Prestedge (talk) 20:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC) — Billy Prestedge (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Delete This entire conversation is one of the worst cases of sock puppetry in one AfD that I've seen in my time on Wiki. Whoever keeps creating new accounts to make the same arguments needs to stop. This article does not pass WP:GNG or WP:NFOOTY.  Del ♉ sion 23  (talk)  23:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Please see reliable sources of evidence that the MISL is a professional league 1. The U.S.A 's equivalant to F.A - http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx, http://misl.uslsoccer.com/About/index_E.html , http://www.usindoor.com/articles/soccernews/misl-live.php , http://www.usindoor.com/sport/soccer/history/ Fact The MISL is a professional League the wikipedia page WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues needs updating as before its states from that page  The lists are currently incomplete and some entries are lacking sources  but it does state on the page the following lists http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx and if a debate and peoples lack of knowledge regarding professional leagues of the USA is as you say sock Puppetry so be it! Onthepitch (talk) 00:34, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That is your opinion It states in WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues also quote from that page  The lists are currently incomplete and some entries are lacking sources  Unfortunately it appears that people are objecting due to a lack of knowldge, unfortunately U.S.A sport / Soccer appears not to be anyones specialty!
 * Sock puppetry is when you use more then one account and some more I forgot. Anyway I do know the US Soccer system, the MISL is not a fully-professional league. The sources can say professional all day long, if it was that simple then leagues in say Pakistan and Somalia would be fully-professional. Heck the Goa Professional League should be fully-pro considering that the league has the word professional in it. See it is not that simple. What I would request of you is to find maybe an online rule book so that the experienced wikipedia editors can look at it and if the rules are good then we can say fully-pro but till then that is not the case. Also what we mean by the list is incomplete is that not every fully-pro league is added and if you find one that should be there then discuss it. --Arsenalkid700 (talk) 01:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * thanks for your feedback I will research! Where is the source on the net that states it is not a fully pro league? Thanks again for your help if you can assist or and any further help! I will  contact the following http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx Onthepitch (talk) 02:43, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Although I !voted "Keep" above, this was really based on assumption that one of the other more enthusiastic "keep" !voters would be able to ferret out some sources to substantiate the notability. Onthepitch and Soccermad Tom NY, you really need to start finding some significant coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources such as national newspaper or television coverage pretty damn quickly, as in within the next 24 hours or so, as that will be a far easier way to get the article kept than arguing the toss over whether he's a professional player or not - WP:GNG trumps WP:NFOOTY. -- Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   12:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks Ritchie333 for your comment and advise I'll research and add these sources Onthepitch (talk) 13:29, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.