Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rick Charls (diver)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The early part of the debate seemed to be a good-faith attempt to prove notability by historic footage uploaded as a copyright violation to the internet, which caused problems; however after the relist, there seems to be general consensus that this is a notable biography to have on the encyclopedia. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  21:33, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Rick Charls (diver)

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Case of WP:BLP1E, and per previous consensus at multiple AfDs, holding a Guiness World Record is not enough to pass WP:GNG Joseph2302 (talk) 15:29, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:30, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Joseph</b><b style="color:#00FF00">2302</b> (talk) 15:30, 29 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep If you look into this category https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_male_divers all of the divers have minor sources. I know Wikipedia needs relaible media coverage to this record but this record is from 1983 when there were no online media resources available that is why it cannot be cited. Look at the Dana Kunze who is sharing this record with Rick Charls (diver), this article is present on the wikipedia since 2009. I think this article should not be removed due to lack of online media coverage at that time there was no online media which can be provided as reference. Yosh (talk) 18:35, 29 July 2018 (UTC) Blocked sock. MER-C 06:52, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep He is clearly notable, and some kind of magnificent nutter. But finding good sources may be difficult. I spent four hours looking 1 decent source, but no joy. Nothing in Google Books. Newspapers.com and the wayback machine are Perhaps the best place to look. All the sources currently applied to the article at the moment are Non RS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scope creep (talk • contribs)
 * Thank you.How much are you charging for crystal-gazing, now-a-days? &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 10:38, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete-What the nom said.And, I don't think that this adds much of a notability, either. &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 10:38, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Wikipedia clearly states in it's Identifying Reliable Sources section that broadcast videos and multimedia meet the necessary requirements to be considered as reliable sources. This guy has very reliable broadcast video sources from both ESPN and ABC Sports. The accomplishment is clearly notable and has endured the "test of time."  I recently saw this video on Facebook.  In one month it had close to 5 million views and 52,000 shares.  While Facebook is not a reliable source, that fact that 52,000 people would share the video tells me that this World Record Dive from 35 years ago is notable.  That fact that hundreds of divers have tried unsuccessfully to break this record makes it even more impressive.  While I'm not a Wikipedia writer/editor, I find it strange that all Major League Baseball Players, past and present, 19,100 of them are considered notable and eligible for a page.  The same privileges are given to 23,204 current and former NFL football players, some who haven't even played in a game. Yet this guy, Charls, who competed in a lower tier sport that has no notability guidelines set forth by Wikipedia has an article that is being considered for deletion.  Remember, there were no online print media sources available in the 80's.  Many of the print news agencies have gone out of business.  His World Record High Dive along with his other high diving accomplishments have paved the way for high diving as it is today.  A growing sport that has not only become the most popular event at the FINA World Aquatic Championships, but is now also being considered as an Olympic event. Charls' accomplishments are notable, verifiable and should be recognized.  I vote to keep.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.112.16.160 (talk) 21:46, 30 July 2018 (UTC)  — 172.112.16.160 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse He is exceedingly notable, and belongs to a very small prestigious group of people, numbering less than 5 people, in the last 50 years. Diving >50m is rare, and requires tremendous courage and skill, qualities that mark the group outside the norms of normal diving, as as such notable. scope_creep (talk) 08:57, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Sources, please.I guess some reliable source (other than you, of course) might have appreciated the brilliance of such an achievement and hence,........ &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 09:08, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

www.facebook.com/rick.charls/videos/t.100001380292341/198305776892097/?type=2&video_source=user_video_tab } — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:e000:7f13:5a00:6157:c063:4111:1eae (talk • contribs) — 2605:e000:7f13:5a00:6157:c063:4111:1eae (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * keep Another source from a reputable broadcast media company in the United States, NBC Sports. The 1982 World Target Diving Championships from Hawaii.  Charls wins the Bronze medal.
 * Facebook videos are not reliable sources. <b style="color:#CCCC00">Joseph</b><b style="color:#00FF00">2302</b> (talk) 16:33, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df2RMwR7fWo&feature=youtu.be
 * Comment Additional resources from ESPN and NBC Sports both highly respected and reliable broadcast media companies in the United States.

- https://www.youtube.com/edit?video_id=bQgk2z1iWAw&video_referrer=watch


 * Comment Joseph, WGB would you kindly review Wikipedia’s guidelines for citing sources and what constitutes notability.  Wikipedia clearly states that sources may encompass all forms of media including broadcast media.  There seems to be some confusion that the only acceptable sources must be from print media.  This in not the case.   There is no fixed number of sources required, but multiple sources are generally recommended. Rick Charls has 4 solid broadcast media sources from the most trusted, reputable names in sports reporting.  His 1983 World Record High Dive and 3rd place finish in the 1982 World High Diving Championship were covered by ABC’s Wide World of Sports with the World Record dive recently having gone viral on social media.  Additional sources have recently been added on this page as per the request of WGB.  They include broadcasts of his 3rd place finish in the 1982 World Target Diving Championships covered by NBC Sports and his 2nd place finish at the 1989 Mixed Pairs Cliff Diving Championships seen on ESPN.  All of these broadcast media companies provided verifiable, objective evidence proving that the subject has gained significant independent coverage and recognition from very reliable sources.  This recognition was not just for his World Record, but for a number of events that took place over the course of 8 years.  According to Wikipedia, this sustained coverage is a strong indicator of notability as described by notability of events. While Facebook is not considered a reliable source, it does provide an online outlet to show more reputable media sources.  In this case the subjects 3rd place finish in the World Target Diving Championships. This page was originally put up for deletion over a Guinness World Record certificate that was posted on the subjects page.  That’s preposterous.  A Guinness certificate is an award not an accomplishment.  While I understand your initial concerns, I hope the added information and a better understanding of Wikipedia policies will lead you to reconsider and revoke your nomination to have the page deleted.  Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:e000:7f13:5a00:6157:c063:4111:1eae (talk • contribs)  — 2605:e000:7f13:5a00:6157:c063:4111:1eae (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * So far we've had two argumentative IP users, who are almost certainly the same user, using poor quality sources. A Youtube video of the event is not "significant coverage about him", it's coverage of an event that he happened to be in. <b style="color:#CCCC00">Joseph</b><b style="color:#00FF00">2302</b> (talk) 20:56, 2 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Response to Joseph Joseph, YouTube is a video sharing service that allows people to upload videos from very reliable sources. In this case ABC's Wide World of Sports, NBC Sports and ESPN.  Are you implying that these broadcast media giants aren't reliable?  They're the most reliable news sources in the United States, if not the World.  Far more reliable that any print media.  To be featured and interviewed by these sources for Holding World Records and Winning World Championships like Charls did, is far more notable than the 23,000 football players and 19,000 baseball players that are eligible for pages. Did all of these players have significant coverage?  No. They were part of an event.  Half of these players were bench warmers and didn't even get into the game, yet according to Wikipedia, they are deemed notable.  When someone competes in the Olympics, they are part of an event. I urge you to not only review Wikipedia's guidelines regarding sources and notability, but stop giving your opinion.  Wikipedia facts only.
 * (non voter comment) Response to above post, whether someone similar to the subject has an article on Wikipedia or doesn't have an article on Wikipedia is not releveant to whether this subject should have an article on Wikipedia. <em style="font-family:Rubik;color:Lollipop">JC7V  <em style="font-family:Ebrima;color:Purple">-constructive zone  18:40, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Once you wade through and ignore the massive amount of WP:SPA junk, there's not much serious discussion here. Hoping another week will produce something useful.
 * Response to non voter The point I was trying to make was in response to Josephs comment that the subject is not noteworthy because sources were of an event that he happened to be in.  Wikipedia makes it clear that people who are part of certain events like the Olympics, Commonwealth Games, etc. are noteworthy even though the coverage in not about them.
 * Keep Subject/person has gained significant independent coverage and recognition from very reliable broadcast media sources. As per Wikipedia guidelines broadcast media is an acceptable source.  In a day and age of "fake news", it is also, in my opinion, far more reliable than print media sources.  Sustained coverage of this person over a period of 8 years, 1982-1990, is a strong indicator of notability, not to mention the accomplishment of holding a World Record for over a quarter of a century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ProfessorGuy (talk • contribs)  — ProfessorGuy (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 21:58, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Roy, you & Joseph continue to deflect Wikipedia policies with your opinion. I'm insulted that you would call my comments "junk", especially when I am citing rules set forth by  Wikipedia regarding sourcing and notability. As I have mentioned in previous posts, Wikipedia clearly states that broadcast media is a strong, reliable and  acceptable source.  Charls has 4 media sources from highly reputable companies, ESPN, ABC's Wide World of Sports (2) and NBC Sports. The sustained coverage over an 8 year period that includes a World Record High Dive from 172 ft in 1983 that still stands today indicates notability, yet you deflect these accomplishments  by talking about WP:SPA.  When putting an article up for deletion Wikipedia asks for facts as to why the article should be deleted or kept, yet you make the comment "Once you wade through and ignore the massive amount of junk there's not much to consider." Huh? Are you serious? Take some time to review Wikipedia policies.  It doesn't matter who makes these comments, only that they are accurate.  I have accurately explained the facts as to why we should keep this article, all supported by Wikipedia.  Can you please, objectively explain, citing rules and regulations from Wikipedia, why it should be deleted.  Please, no opinion.  FACTS only.
 * Comment, this looks like someone readers would look for, so if not kept (note: i am not saying keep or delete:)), a redirect to High diving with more words there may be appropriate rather than a delete? Coolabahapple (talk) 09:35, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep - World Record holder in high diving. I actually found this deletion debate looking up his name on the internets after watching the video of his record-tying dive. It was pretty impressive. Carrite (talk) 06:52, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. Passes notability guidelines due to being a record holder for a significant and challenging record. <b style="color:#3399FF">Redditaddict69</b> <sup style="color:#339900">(click here if I screwed up stuff again) <sup style="color:3300FF">(edits)   09:24, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Person has held a difficult World Record, thus indicating notability. <b style="color:#090">Semi</b><b style="color:#099">Hypercube</b> ✎ 19:52, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment - coverage by shows such as Wide World of Sports could certainly count towards notability, and it would be helpful if more details were given such as original broadcast date, etc. That said, is the coverage a 30-second clip of an incredible stunt, or is there an in-depth profile of the diver within the coverage?  Has there been continued coverage/competition regarding extreme high-diving, or was this a brief 1980s fad?  Are the "World Professional High Diving Championships"  or the "World Mixed Diving Championship"  (sorry for paywall links) notable?  Notability isn't temporary, so how followed/covered were they at the time?  The discussion as exists makes notability difficult to judge, at least to me.   78.26  (spin me / revolutions) 20:25, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.