Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rick L Evans


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   redirect to The_Imperials. None of the Keep votes indicate any reason why this is valid as a stand-alone article (not to mention most are from SPAs who appear not to understand our notability policies and indeed at least one has voted twice). Black Kite (talk) 20:15, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Rick L Evans

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Individual is not interdependently independently notable Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:22, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 00:41, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 00:41, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "Individual is not interdependently notable". He is the current lead singer/manager of the Classic imperials. All you have to do is look at their website http://www.theclassicimperials.com to see who Rick is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeffJansen (talk • contribs) 12:14, 20 January 2013 (UTC) — JeffJansen (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * That's what I mean. He's notable because he's a member of the group, but doesn't carry any individual notability. Which means, material about him could be included in the band article, but there's not enough to have an article of his own. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:33, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Try this: Nationally known singer/speaker Credits: 15 years as a consultant and counselor to nationally known churches and International organizations. Associations include Billy Graham, Promise Keepers, The Harvest Crusades with Greg Laurie, The Californians, The Crownsmen, The Dennis Agajanian Band, The Imperials, and more than 10 years as a featured member of The Franklin Graham Crusade team. Recorded with Manna Music, Maranatha Records, Word Entertainment, and others. All this was done without the Imperials.

Lead Singer for The Imperials www.theimperials.com President of Living In Faith www.livinginfaith.com President of Impact www.411impact.com What other notoriety are you looking for? Just because you are not aware of the impact does not mean there is not an impact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeffJansen (talk • contribs) 15:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * He needs to receive attention (reliable third-party sources) aside from working with The Imperials to be considered notable. In some cases, a group's lead singer will have an article if he has received substantial coverage. It's unlikely he would have received significant attention for being a pastor. If he has been a "consultant and counselor to nationally known churches and International organizations", there needs to be third-party evidence of this. Lastly, recording with several record labels doesn't automatically make you notable as you would also need third-party evidence. I suggest visiting Notability. SwisterTwister   talk  06:54, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

One source of third party verification are the recordings recorded and the history of those recordings. Additionally the combined notoriety of this individual and the documentable history is outlined not only in the websites online, but also through other sources, only some of which are mentioned in this discussion. Add to that that there are many articles, on Wikipedia, that have been written with less proof than this individual. Restate- Valid third party verification is clearly in place and exists on the web sites and the articles already listed and already written about this individual. I do agree that this article can be improved and needs to continue to ebb and flow for resolution to the issues raised. That said… This article should remain in place  One correction  to the above discussion. As G.M. of the Imperials, not only is Rick Evans the Lead Singer of the group but has been involved in the group for decades. That is not reflected in the history of The Imperials, but it is a true part of the history. I mention this because it is necessary to explain that Rick Evans is not just a New Member of the group, but is the only Member of the group listed on its Board of Directors. He is not just a new member but rather the driving element for any continuation of the group. Many of the accomplishment(s) of this individual were part of history in his time with Billy Graham and Franklin Graham. On his own he also recorded 7 records and has been on television to many times to count. But his significance is the collective of it all, although any individual accomplish certainly measures up to the criteria outlined in WP:MUSICBIO or WP:BAND Additional Clarification. The only Rick Evans to work with Dr. Graham was this Rick Evans. So the comment that "it may be irrelevant" is corrected to show, at least, a beginning to the research in this area. It is certainly a third party verification and meets the criteria for the page and the continuance of this article. some results — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee Karnbach (talk • contribs) 12:08, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete, No significant coverage as defined by WP:GNG found in news or book sources, therefore failing that subject cannot pass WP:MUSICBIO or WP:BAND. The subject appears to have written three books, however he does not appear to pass WP:AUTHOR.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 16:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Redirect to The_Imperials - It seems he is a fairly new member of The Imperials so he probably hasn't made a significant impact but Google News found two press releases (first and second result from the top) with the original press release here, and one news article here (seems to briefly talk about him, relevant content is not shown in preview). A different search provided this which also talks a little about him. A search including the Pathways Community Church also didn't provide anything relevant but this isn't surprising. Searches with both his company Living In Faith and Franklin Graham Festival provided nothing relevant but a search with The Crownsmen (another music group he was a member of) found this brief mention. Another search with Billy Graham provided some results but they are vague and they may be irrelevant to this Rick Evans. Aside from that, I haven't found much to improve this article. With no significant career or reliable third-party sources, the article would read like an advertisement. SwisterTwister   talk  06:54, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee Karnbach (talk • contribs) 16:52, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This article is valid and should remain in place

Quote -- “These days, the group is comprised of a rock solid line-up of founding member Armond Morales (bass), 29-year veteran Dave Will (baritone/lead), popular alumni Paul Smith (tenor/lead) and new member Rick Evans (tenor/lead), who has traveled extensively with Billy Graham, Harvest Crusades, Promise Keepers and more”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHEYqEXNeTk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POdtJkjWaX4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee Karnbach (talk • contribs) 17:43, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Rick L, Evans, as spokesmen for The Imperials, has listed information in this radio interview that is notable and is “third Party” verification about his notoriety before The Imperials.
 * I've struck your second "Keep" because you can also vote once. SwisterTwister   talk  19:14, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I did not mean to double vote. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee Karnbach (talk • contribs) 20:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * And since the second Keep had a reason and the first one didn't, I struck the first and restored the second. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep: OK, after carefully looking at both sides, I have to say that although it certainly needs improvement, it is not any worse than some articles which have been around since 2006/07; these are just 2 that I've found: Billy Smiley, Paul Smith (Christian music performer) (in fact, those are probably even worse). --Musdan77 (talk) 21:08, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Quality of the article is not the issue. Both Smiley and Smith are notable, the former for having written a lot of music and producing the work of others, the latter for releasing several solo albums on major Christian labels. The subject here does not have that type of notability. Being in Billy Graham's band isn't notable. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:26, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying that article "quality" is the reason. Obviously that wouldn't be the reason for me to say "keep". But, what you have just said is going by what you know from your past, not by the sources given in the 3 articles mentioned. Either all 3 need to be deleted or they all need improvement. --Musdan77 (talk) 21:57, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Not entirely correct. Notability either does or doesn't exist for a subject. If a subject is notable, we try to create an article for that subject. If the subject isn't notable but has an article on Wikipedia, we remove that article. If the subject is notable and has an article that doesn't reflect that, we improve that article. It's not those who have the best fans and writers who get articles on Wikipedia, it's supposed to be those who meet the notability criteria. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:04, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Here is an article where Rick is mentioned as part of Dr. Billy Graham’s Team. During this year he also appeared on Network Television and was a featured part of the program. How much more notoriety do you look for than singing to 50,000+ people in large stadiums and performing on Network Television many times. How far back do you need to see the value of the notoriety. Just because you are not aware of the notoriety does not make it unnotable. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=nOAKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vlADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6742,3016108&dq=rick+evans+billy+graham&hl=en — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee Karnbach (talk • contribs) 22:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not notoriety that we're looking for but notability. There are general notability guidelines and guidelines for musicians. This mention as an accompanist for Agajanian does not meet any of the critera. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep Rick L. Evans is quite well known in the christian community of North America. He has been a member of the Billy Graham worship team, The Harvest Crusades with Greg Laurie, The Dennis Agajanian Band, The Imperials, a featured member of The Franklin Graham Crusade team. He has recorded with serveral record companies including but not limited to: Manna Music, Maranatha Records, Word Entertainment. He has appeared in many youtube Videos as Lee Karnbach was able to find as well as these articles http://www.christiansonic.net/category/southerncountry/page/2 and http://familyfirst.com/the-classic-imperials-lead-singer-rick-evans-tells-family-first-about-his-holiday-traditions.html. I have personnaly run sound for Rick on numorous occasions and twice for The Classic Imperials. To say that he has no independant notable contributions is like saying that Nepoleon had no notable contirbutions to the French Army, He was the leader of the Army and Fisrt Emporer of France. He could not have been famous with out the team he was a part of. Just because you are part of a team, does not mean you individually have not contributed to the sucess of the team. Jcawthorne (talk) 22:07, 23 January 2013 (UTC) — Jcawthorne (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * OK. I'll bite.
 * What was his role as a member of the Billy Graham worship team? Was it written about in a reliable source?
 * Was his involvement in The Harvest Crusades with Greg Laurie covered as a feature article in a notable publication?
 * Surely, as a member of The Dennis Agajanian Band allowed him to received press. Would you mind providing that? That's his role, not the band's.
 * Similarly, please provide the write-ups about his involvement in The Imperials and the Franklin Graham Crusade team either here or at the article so we know that he's notable.
 * Allmusic entries for the Manna, Maranatha! and Word albums would be required to prove that he's notable there. It could also be a listing or review of any of his albums in CCM Magazine or another similar publication. Although liner notes indicating that he performed on an album would likely not be sufficient.
 * And so on. The question isn't whether he's a musician, but whether he's a notable musician. I could list a dozen musicians who have similar achievements, but none of them are notable either.
 * Napoleon was notable independent of the French Army as he was also Emperor of France. Also, several books have been written about him and he changed the course of European history. No one is saying that Evans isn't notable just because he's been in the background. We're saying he isn't notable because he doesn't meet the criteria for notability on Wikipedia. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I think I can provide this information. It certainly takes some research because of the way the Christian Community works, but it is there and can be done. The question is whether or not you will allow this artist to stand on his own until we can provide what “your” looking for. I am certain he meets the criteria for Wikipedia.

Here are the answers to your questions


 * 1.	What was his role as a member of the Billy Graham worship team? Was it written about in a reliable source? – Rick Evans sang with Dennis Agajanian and was feature every night as a soloist singing “Victory In Jesus” He had an unusual ability to hold a note for more than 20 counts. It was a crowd favorite and was part of the regular news cycle of what was referred to as “The Battle of The Bands”


 * 2.	Was his involvement in The Harvest Crusades with Greg Laurie covered as a feature article in a notable publication? It would not have been part of the intention of the “Harvest” ministry to push any person forward. – The team would have been as a collective, but certainly wearing a buck skin coat and singing Blue Grass High tenor, Rick Evans was one of the stand outs. That is why it is hard to get third party verification because we are looking for information that would have been written that draws out the individual instead of the team (which would be against the code).


 * 3.	Surely, as a member of The Dennis Agajanian Band allowed him to received press. Would you mind providing that? That's his role, not the band's. – Of course. There is plenty of information about his involvement as part of Dennis Agajanian Band and as a soloist. – Rick was a featured soloist for Dennis and sang regularly, gave television interviews, and was written about.


 * 4.	Similarly, please provide the write-ups about his involvement in The Imperials and the Franklin Graham Crusade team either here or at the article so we know that he's notable. – This is the easiest to do because there is more than enough out there to satisfy this requirement. I would say that there is enough for there to be an article written about just those two parts.


 * 5.	All music entries for the Manna, Maranatha! and Word albums would be required to prove that he's notable there. It could also be a listing or review of any of his albums in CCM Magazine or another similar publication. Although liner notes indicating that he performed on an album would likely not be sufficient. – Again this is easy to do with time. All the information you’re looking for is there, it just takes time to cite and gather. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee Karnbach (talk • contribs) 23:38, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * That's great. We don't need all of those things. They were itemized based on Jcawthorne's comments. Keep the notability guidelines in mind and providing just a few, not all, would suffice. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:52, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Redirect to The Imperials where he is already mentioned. I could find absolutely no independent coverage about Mr. Evans at Google News Archive, and none is provided at the article or at this discussion, so he is not independently notable. Folks, it isn't enough for you to simply assert that "he did this" and "he was a member of that"; it needs to be verified by independent reliable sources. --MelanieN (talk) 00:16, 24 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep In Mind The time frame Rick Evans Was with most of these organizations was before youtube and posting of ones entire life on the internet was popular. The articles and Televsion interviews would need to be found if possible at local stations across America. Does one have to validate himself before the internet to exist?Jcawthorne (talk) 00:48, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Which is why simply providing reliable sources is enough. If it's a publication that is not available online, you may be asked for a quote or something similar. Google books quite frequently has listings of old publications. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * In any case, Youtube and "posting of one's entire life on the internet" are not Reliable Sources. That's not what we are looking for here. We are looking for INDEPENDENT RELIABLE sources such as newspapers. Older records may still be available, if he really was getting significant coverage. For example, this notice mentions him in passing as an "accompanist" with the Billy Graham Crusade in 1995. OK, that confirms that he was involved in the Graham crusade, but it doesn't come close to SIGNIFICANT coverage. And "accompanist" is not a notable position with the Crusade; Graham must have had hundreds of people involved in his Crusades at that level at one time or another. If Evans had a really significant or important position, there would be a record somewhere. --MelanieN (talk) 04:26, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree with MelanieN. We have posted these several times, but please read WP:N and WP:BAND. That's what we're talking about when we say notability. Nothing more. Nothing less. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:03, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * And just to clarify, that was John Wesley White that Evans was performing on-stage with, not Graham. Also, it's just one performance and that doesn't make an association. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:32, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes it is with John Wesley White, but Mr. White did the first two days of the event, at that time, and then Franklin would do the last night. It was all part of the same association and event. Working to find the verification of that so that it is easily seen by anyone who would read the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee Karnbach (talk • contribs) 12:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)


 * For Review The Dove Awards Articel "The Dove Awards Article Tale of Two reunions" Would this be concidered reliable source to this panel? He is still a member of the Imperials, However I feel that maybe some history is needed here. Rick is responsible for the return of "The Classic Imperials", He traveled to Hawaii to re-ingnite Armond Morales about the return to the christian scene of "The Classic Imperials" thus individually he is responsible for the return of one of the most influential groups in christian music. This is explained on the Rick L Evans Page you would like to delete, Stating that he is not individual or independently notable. His conversation with Armond Morales in Hawaii caused the article from the dove awards in a sense linked above.Jcawthorne (talk) 17:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * By stating "Redirect", what you've done is voted for this article to be be redirected somewhere. Since the current request for a redirect is that it go to the band article, are you changing your vote now or were you just trying to sound legal and catch our attention?
 * The article is a reliable source, however, it simply reinforces that he's a member of The Imperials. I don't know that it confers intendant notability on Evans. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:35, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It was not my intetion to sound legalistic just wanted to point out something to the group. I have changed the comment to For Review, Is that the correct or should I use something else in it's place. Excuse me for my lack of edicate in this forum, I am trying to learn and conform to it. This is the first article I have commmented on. I do not want the article to be redirected my appoligies to you sir I did not mean to offend.Jcawthorne (talk) 19:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You're doing much better than I did in my first AfD discussion. Just wanted to make sure you weren't changing your vote, because that's what some might assume. Thanks. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I am trying to work through the individual part of this. I have checked out many articles on Wikipedia and have found that it makes it more confusing. For instance.Duane Allen of the The Oak Ridge Boys. A perfect and compatible comparison. Duane has never done anything out of context to the Oaks and yet he has a page. There are no articles (anywhere) that set him aside from the Oak Ridge Boys and yet his page is acceptable. Rick Evans has, in addition to The Imperials, a provable background with many others who are at least as notable. I do understand the process of trying to quantify the article, but I do not understand why Rick L Evans is singled out for deletion under the same grounds that are ignored or even celebrated for others with less notoriety in their field. PLEASE don’t take this as a criticism. I will find the references you’re looking for, it is just hard to do with an individual that has maintained a “Team” based career. Showing his significance with a team of worldwide notoriety is easy. Showing him as an individual without a team might be as difficult as showing Duane Allen as an individual without the Oak Ridge Boys.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee Karnbach (talk • contribs) 12:49, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * His presence in the Texas Gospel Music Hall of Fame or the fact that he's been with the band since 1966 could both be reasons for its inclusion. I tagged it differently and will let someone else nominate it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:26, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

1. Mr. Evans did in fact sing as lead singer for the Crownsmen, and recorded on Manna Records. I am Gary Kauffman, guitar, who is referenced in the article. I recorded with him on I'm Gonna Rise at MCA Whitney Studios in Glendale, CA in November of 1977; I also recorded with him on You Gave The Song at the same studio in early 1979. On I'm Gonna Rise is a song that was written by him, God Isn't Dead. Hal Spencer, president of Manna Music, was our producer, and was in the studio with us when we recorded. I toured with the Crownsmen from November 1977 to May of 1979, and Mr. Evans was in fact the lead singer. One of our performances was at a reception of the Gospel Music Association in spring of 1979 in Santa Monica, CA. This point is offered as validation that Mr. Evans performed with the Crownsmen and recorded on Manna Records, as support that he is a person of significance for the Gospel Music industry. 2. I have personal knowledge that Mr. Evans leads, and is a member of the Imperials. On February 5, 2011, I personally attended a concert of the Imperials in Colleyville, TX. While there, I received a copy of the Still Standing CD that was personally autographed by the members of the Imperials. This point is offered as validation that Mr. Evans leads and is a member of the Imperials, in support that he is a person of significance for the Gospel Music industry. 3. I am aware of Mr. Evans' role with Living In Faith as a result of friendship with him. I admit I do not have as much personal knowledge of this point as with points 1 and 2 in that I have never toured any of the organization's facilities. However, the message of Gospel Music includes a spirit of ministry and charity as offered by Living In Faith. From that argument, I again support the assertion that Mr. Evans is a person of significance for the Gospel Music industry.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gdkauff (talk • contribs) 22:44, 26 January 2013 (UTC) — Gdkauff (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep - This article is valid and should remain in place. I am offering personal knowledge that Rick L Evans sang and recorded with the Crownsmen on Manna Records, that he leads the Imperials, and has an organization Living In Faith.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.