Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Riverbend Mall


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was no consensus. Mailer Diablo 02:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Riverbend Mall
I would like to propose this defunct mall for deletion. Apparently there has been in the past some disagreement on whether malls are in general notable. Consider this negligible mall, which operated for about 15 years, and not in Times Square, either, if you catch my drift. Does it deserve an article? I say it's non-notable. Then consider "Category:Defunct shopping malls in the United States" (18 entries) and "Category:Shopping malls in the United States" (hundreds). How big is big enough for mall notability? In opining on this page, I ask you to not only decide the fate of Riverbend, but broaden the discussion, so that we could set a meaningful well-argued precedent for the future of malls on WP. DELETE. the.crazy.russian  (T)   (C)   (E)  23:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * keep A good article. I'm an inclusionist in most cases. --Irishpunktom\talk 23:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * keep The article was written by the same person who wrote it on deadmalls.com with a personal knowledge of the center. Enclosed malls are not a dime a dozen and if they had major anchors and served a whole city count as legitimate.  This mall was also notable in that it contained the only Georgia store for several major, now defunct chains.
 * Weak Delete Malls are a dime a dousin, surely a defunct shopping mall that was neither the first or greatest in anything, doesn't assert much notability.Eivindspeak! 00:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete this nn mall. No comment for now on the others. JoshuaZ 00:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * weak delete questionably notable and very poorly written. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 00:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete as nn and WP:V. I think a lot of the defunct mall stuff unnecessarily mirrors http://www.deadmalls.com . It's possible there are other sources for this article, but actually no sources are identified even though http://www.deadmalls.com/malls/riverbend_mall.html was probably a major one. Esquizombi 00:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete, an ordinary, non-notable, defunct mall. Not a bad article, though. Lord Bob 00:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Good article and makes no difference to me whether the mall is operating now or not. It played a role in its economy and thus has historical interest and a story to be told. -- JJay 01:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, my great-grandpappy used to run a tobacco and snuff business off a horse-drawn cart. He stimulated growth in the local lung cancer treatment center economy, and reduced horse unemployment. Should he have an article too, under Cat:Defunct Solo Proprietorships? lol the.crazy.russian   (T)   (C)   (E)  01:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Do the article and then we can talk about it. Otherwise, I fail to see why you think removing information from this site is some kind of joke. -- JJay 01:22, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete It's no more or less a joke than the assertion that this article on a mall which is indistinguishable from thousands of others is worth keeping. Building on a flood plain isn't too bright, but if we want an article telling us that people are stupid, this is not it. D e nni &#9775;  02:41, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep per JJay. Weatherman90 01:59, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep per JJay, although it should be cleaned up to make it more encyclopedic. BryanG 02:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. There are literally hundreds of thousands of non-notable shopping centers, and even more failed ones, in the world. One could spend a lifetime cataloging them. If it has some historical significance aside from being flooded in the 90s and the site of a kidnapping in the early 80s, I may be persuaded to change my mind, but I just don't see that in the article. -Dawson 02:52, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete as nn mall. --Ter e nce Ong 02:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. I don't think malls should be included unless they are the first/greatest/most of something (biggest, most visitors, first in a state, etc.) Grand master ka [[Image:Blend Flag.jpg|30px|]]Impart wisdom 03:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep for now. I tend to think that there should be a centralized discussion on what makes a mall notable. Otherwise, I fear a string of no consensus votes on the horizon. Also, I find the mall to be as notable and well-referenced as most of the high schools that have articles here, so yeah, keep .  young  american  (talk) 03:34, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * There's another problem area... I blithely tried to AfD one or two recently... Lack of experience. It turns out, high schools are notable by virtue of existence. the.crazy.russian   (T)   (C)   (E)  04:03, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I struck the part of my vote that was meant to show frustration with school inclusionism, since some people misunderstood what I was saying. But, yeah, keep for now (although it would need cleanup and verify tags), have a centralized discussion and a policy in place, then delete this if it fails to meet the guidelines.  young  american  (talk) 18:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per crazy ruuskie &rArr;    SWAT Jester   [[Image:Flag_of_Iceland.svg|18px|]]  Ready    Aim    Fire!  03:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment maybe I'm missing something here but if we had a corporation that owned the mall, even owned a few malls we would probably delete it by WP:CORP. So I have trouble understanding how when the malls are separated they should be kept. JoshuaZ 03:38, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think some people tend to view malls as objects of geographical notability. E.g., the Mall of America, a profoundly notable thing, is run by the "Ghermezian Organization", a profoundly NN Corp Melvin Simon and Associates. Not that that should detract from the "delete" for this one. the.crazy.russian   (T)   (C)   (E)  04:03, 17 March 2006 (UTC) Well, there goes that one. You prob. get my point tho.  the.crazy.russian   (T)   (C)   (E)  04:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Are there any statistics regarding malls? Any rankings per country? This would give us a better clue as to notability. Also did it contain any notable stores? Did it leave an impact on the area or did it simply vanish without a trace? Did it have any attributable economic/social impact on the area? I believe these are things to consider. Joelito 04:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete after failing to see notability. Joelito 17:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep. Perhaps a Shopping mall wikiproject? - Scaife
 * Delete per above --Khoikhoi 06:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep If schools are considered notable enough, why not malls? -- T B C ???   ???   ??? 06:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Just because there is currently an odd attitude towards schools among some editors(which is being reworked btw) doesn't mean we need to start applying the same logic to other areas. JoshuaZ 06:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Weak keep; I tend to support the idea of a wikiproject. ProhibitOnions 10:38, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I'm mis-understanding, but does this mean that you support keeping any article that's part of a Wikiproject? If I started Wikiproject People's Left Shoes, would you vote to keep Lord Bob's left shoe because it was in a Wikiproject? I realize this is a very absurd example but, honestly, that was the first thing that came to mind when I read your comment. I'd just like to know where the line comes in. Lord Bob 15:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. A wikiproject isn't really what is needed here. There needs to be a centralized discussion, leading to a policy proposal, so we can sort out what, if anything, makes a given mall notable.  young  american  (talk) 18:43, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Articles such as this are important as they show an example of a general economic trend. The article could do for some citiations of sources, if those sources arent from first hand observations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.150.80.147 (talk • contribs)
 * Weak Keep What, are we running low on space? Why not? I mean, it's a place, no? -- негідний лють  ( Reply 10:57, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * So is my garden. So is the McDonalds' down the road from me.  Should they have articles?  Please, could you explain your reasoning, I'm concerned that I'm missing something, here.    Proto    ||    type    16:27, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a place that has had a large cultural and economic impact on an area, and was visited by, and known to, tens of thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of people. So, unless you have a really popular garden, the distinction is clear. McDonald's is a chain, and no different than most other ones, unlike malls and schools, which have unique characteristics to them. Plus, the latter two have a far greater economic impact on area than a single restauarant does. Turnstep 18:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete malls aren't notable unless there is a clear reason why they are. In my opinion, schools notability should not be automatic. MLA 12:42, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete A standard mall is a lot less important than a standard school. Scranchuse 14:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete as non-notable (per MLA). Kuzaar 15:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep per JJay. -- S iva1979 Talk to me  15:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete, as non-notable and of strictly local interest. Adolescents may find shopping malls to be interesting subject matter, but this article is deadly dull, and I had to make a real effort to finish it.  I doubt this mall has significantly affected anyone who hasn't shopped there or otherwise seen it. Brian G. Crawford 15:46, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete, and no doubt a slap on my wrist for daring to expect some kind of quality control to be applied to Wikipedia.  WP:NOT a memorial, and that should apply to buildings even more so than people.  Was the mall notable in its time?  Nope.  Therefore, it is not now.  The arguments to keep this 'article' are exceptionally flimsy (along the lines of 'keep because it should be kept'.    Proto    ||    type    16:11, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, strong delete - article is ENTIRELY unreferenced and unverified, as well as ugly and badly written. If hyper-inclusionism does prevail, then merge a less-boring and badly-written (ie, three line) description into Rome, GA.    Proto    ||    type    16:21, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep; large buildings are "notable". --SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates! ) 17:03, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep per all above. Question though (which has nothing directly to do with this AfD, sorry). If Schools are automatically notable, and malls are becoming so, why are churches not? Jcuk 17:48, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * comment if this isn't an indication of the general absurdity of the inclusion of all malls and schools, I don't know what is. JoshuaZ 17:57, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I've given up on trying to figure things like this out. The beliefs of some Wikipedians make my brain hurt. So I just don't worry about it and try to pretend they don't exist. It's remarkably effective. Lord Bob 18:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep as an important part of the local economy and something that has affected thousands of people. I've also cleaned up the article a bit - if people have further complaints or suggestions on it, please leave a note on the article's talk page. Turnstep 18:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete and a shout into the wind. It's a mall, dead and buried. It wasn't even around for a particularly long time for a mall. It wasn't particularly significant, unless being the only Bon-Ton in Georgia is something that's particularly notable. That said, it lacks verifiability, which is the final shot to the head of this dead horse. We don't need to mirror deadmalls.com. RasputinAXP   c  [[Image:Gadsden_flag.svg|25px]] 21:52, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete nn mall, nn concept, nn category. 204.69.40.7 22:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to say Delete. I see no reason why a defunct shopping centre is notable. Jud e (talk,contribs,email) 23:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * keep please it has a historical interest the wiki is not paper Yuckfoo 01:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - not notable, and information duplicated at DeadMalls.com. Mhking 01:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * this is not deadmalls.com Yuckfoo 01:22, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No, and it's not a repository for useless information either. D e nni &#9775;  01:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * this is not useless thanks Yuckfoo 01:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - not notable defunct mall Cursive 02:24, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: I've added some info on the Millican kidnapping and murder- the subject of books, plays and Oprah. In fact, malls are not just cultural and economic centres for their areas, the village squares of our times. Besides being fun places to shop and buy ice cream, they are often the scene of real confrontation between good and evil and a microcosm of society. I think that is part of the reason why we should be talking about them here. -- JJay 15:25, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Basketball courts are also scenes of "real confrontation between good and evil and a microcosm of society" but should we have articles about every basketball court? Joelito 15:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If that is where serial killers prey because of the easy access to young girls, yes. -- JJay 15:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The killers are notable but the site where the killing occurs is not necessarily notable. Furthermore the killing didn't even take place in the mall. Joelito 15:54, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Combined with all the other aspects Riverbend clearly deserves a place here. Its connection with this notorious crime means that its memory lives on and it should not be forgotten. Millican would be alive had she not gone to the mall or gotten separated from her group. She would also be alive if the Neeleys had not seen Riverbend as an easy place to grab vics. The question is why are malls breeding grounds for these kind of events? Telling the story of individual malls helps shed light on the issue.-- JJay 16:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry but I fail to see other aspects which establish notability. Also I doubt that telling the story of individual malls help shed light on the issue. Finally deadmalls.com clearly states that "the mall is now merely a memory". Joelito 16:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The deadmalls page is a blog post by one user...but thanks for sharing your opinion -- JJay 16:52, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * AAAAAHHH - the pain! The murdered Lisa Ann Millican doesn't even have her own article! If her murder is notable, it should be on her page, not the mall's! For crying out loud, people! the.crazy.russian   (T)   (C)   (E)  01:17, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep per JJay and Turnstep. Zagalejo 19:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * strong keep Look folks. I wrote the article for deadmalls.com and I did duplicate it here, but wrote it much better than on deadmalls.com.  I have wanted to sever ties with that site and have been publishing NOTABLE malls and major store chain histories for the state of Georgia on wiki.  I especially like to note the vacant or demolished ones because these are places that people made memories that they might like to look back and find information on.  Rich's?  The Rich's at Greenbriar?  I remember Greenbriar from 20 years ago, I'd like to hear what they had to say about it (see the point?). There are approximately 40 noteworthy malls in Georgia with major department store anchors: that is it.  I am talking traditional, general enclosed malls that featured at least one major department store anchor.  This one had three.  Malls are disappearing at a rapid rate nationwide.  These malls were significant, including some that were short-lived.  Some successful malls die young.  If an earthquake destroyed the world's largest mall five years after it opened, it would still be significant.  Also, most of these descriptions consist of maybe two paragraphs with no photographs, logos or anything.  I think Wiki wouldn't crash over that.  This information is enjoyed by a surprisingly large amount of people and represents a time when malls were like cities themselves.  People made memories in these places and they were known by thousands, maybe millions of people.  The fact that they are dying this soon represents a major shift in American society.  Riverbend Mall had a very large shopping area drawing people from upwards of three states and caused downtown Rome to lose its two major department stores and completely killed it for years.  The mall also stood for actually 24 years though its period of actual success was only 15.  And yes, this information came from memory and research of the various regional department store chains.  I also remember seeing them report the flooding of the mall on the Atlanta news that year.  I knew Hess's, Belk Rhodes and JCPenney (three major anchors) were all there and saw them with my own eyes.  I do not need to quote that...I saw it for myself.  And yes, this was a successful mall that died young because of a natural disaster (albeit poor planning).  The location where it stood is still the major commercial strip of the city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.11.147.54 (talk • contribs) 07:45, 19 March 2006 moved down here for chronology sake.  the.crazy.russian   (T)   (C)   (E)
 * Thank you anon user for clearly establishing this as original research and lacking verifiability. Joelito 16:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Wrong. There is a huge difference between writing something from memory and OR. All the store changes, flooding, etc. are verifiable right out of the newspapers. -- JJay 16:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Right. I was there.  I saw the anchors, remember when it happened.  I saw the banner in front of the Belk Rhodes that read "Outlet Store" a year after Mount Berry opened.  I saw the very seedy looking Bon-Ton there with the cheap looking sign.  That was strictly from memory and I remember the year well.  I was going to Little River Canyon that day and noticed it.  I ate in the Morrison's Cafeteria and shopped in the Reed/Big B/Revco/CVS drug store there.  I spent much time in that old Belk Rhodes as a kid with my mom and even took a photograph in 2002 of the store just before the wrecking ball finished it off.  I can also see a Chick Fil A employee handing out samples along that ramped part of the mall up to the food court around 1991 or so.  We used to shop there a lot from about 1985-1992 or so.


 * Delete as this mall lacks particular significance or notability, and malls are not inherently notable. The murder does not affect this &mdash; it had no geographic resonance; a tragedy that could have been located in thousands of other non-notable malls. Sliggy 01:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Strikeout as issue not relevant now a separate article has been created. Sliggy 00:20, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: due to the recent rash of "if it exists, we need an article about it" folks showing up at Afd, I raised the question of notability of buildings at Wikipedia talk:Notability. Malls and dorms seem to be the most common buildings that we get articles about.  We have standards for businesses, see WP:CORP.  I don't see how an individual property is more "notable" than the business than owns it, so I don't think being a mall is sufficient reason for inclusion.  There are hundreds of thousands of them, they pretty much all do the same thing.  For this article my opinion is delete (not that it matters), but I've no prejudice against someone making an article about the kidnapping incident.  That seems to be the most significant thing about this mall.  Friday (talk) 15:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete; WP:N Walter Siegmund (talk) 04:03, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. In the AfD for List of dead and distressed shopping malls, we already determined that dead malls are notable, and determined to keep the list.  Articles about dead malls, this one included, are notable.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 11:07, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment:I have removed the Lisa Ann Millican murder into its own article. That was the only potentially notable thing about this mall. To the admin who closes this: please disregard that rationale.- the.crazy.russian   (T)   (C)   (E)  17:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.