Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rob Maness


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. The policy-based arguments certainly favour DELETE D  P  18:56, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Rob Maness

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

As yet unelected candidate in a future election, with no properly sourced indication that he passes WP:POLITICIAN at this time — article was previously prodded, but the creator subsequently requested restoration. As always, a candidate is not entitled to a Wikipedia article just for running in an election; with extremely rare exceptions, unless you can make a credible case that they were already notable enough for an article before running in the election, they do not become notable enough for an article until they win it (and the same standard applies regardless of whether the candidate is a Democrat or a Republican.) Delete unless somebody can properly source the notability of his military career; it can and will be recreated in due time if he wins. Bearcat (talk) 17:16, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Looking closer at he Notability guidelines, you are probably correct. I am going to see if I can find out if he holds an appropriate political office or has the proper military criteria. If neither is true, I am thinking a redirect to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election_in_Louisiana,_2014 would be appropriate. Khronos21 (talk) 15:50, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That would be acceptable too. Bearcat (talk) 18:49, 24 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Louisiana-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:20, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:20, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:20, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete Candidates for party nominations are not notable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:31, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Louisiana does not have party nominations, it is a jungle primary. Maness, Mary Landrieua and Bob Cassidy are the 3 front-runners, but I think you are right that he would need more than that for notability. Under general notability guidelines, there are a lot of diverse news articles regarding him, and he has over 100k followers on Facebook, but I think his real case for notability comes from the fact that he is a Notable Military Personality. He commanded Kirtland Airforce Base in New Mexico, a "substantial body of troops" under "6" on Military Notability Guide. http://www.spencereveningworld.com/news/2010-06-01/Front_Page/Skys_The_Limit_For_Former_Fair_Queen__Colonel_Robe.html This command was over 23,000 military personnel, which is larger than a division, the low end measure for "substantial body of troops". Thoughts?Khronos21 (talk) 15:59, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, for the record, notability on Wikipedia has nothing to do with counting stuff. The number of followers a person has on Facebook or Twitter or YouTube or wherever is irrelevant to whether they're notable enough or not, and the number of people who were under their employment or military command or whatever is relevant only insofar as you can properly demonstrate that they've received a significant degree of reliable source coverage for things they did while in command of that many soldiers/employees, and not just because you can assert any particular number of soldiers/employees by itself without any further context for why that number matters.
 * Rather, the only aspect of notability that can be quantified as a "countable" number is the volume of reliable sourcing you can or cannot add to properly support a Wikipedia article.
 * The Spencer Evening World is a small community newspaper in a town with a population of only 2,000 or so — I kid you not, I just checked its website and its lead story in today's edition was a local high school student writing an "OMG I'm almost graduating!" fluff piece — so it doesn't meet our standards for reliable sourcing. If there really are a "lot of diverse news articles regarding him" and the Spencer Evening World isn't actually the best you can come up with, then adding those diverse references to the article would potentially help boost his notability and keepability, but it's about the volume and quality of sourcing you can add, and not about how many people are or aren't following him on social media. Bearcat (talk) 21:34, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Got it. I will cite other articles in various topics on him to see what is thought. Any tips on proper citing for an AfD page, or should I just put the links with a brief summary of content? I realized that article was a small source, but I cited it because it specifically referenced the number of troops in his command, and his classification as Mayor of Kirtland Airforce Base. Khronos21 (talk) 02:34, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Citations: I realize the below cites are not in proper format, but I was not sure if proper citation format was required for a AfD Talk Page. I figure they can be cleaned up if it is decided to keep the article. Also, as a disclosure, I am the creator of the article, and I am from New Mexico, where Rob Maness was Commander of Kirtland Airforce Base. I do not know him though, and I am not connected to him.
 * Print
 * http://www.kirtland.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123267781 (Establishes that Maness was Commander of Kirtland AFB, which when taken with the article cited above, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtland_Air_Force_Base, as to the size of the base, would seem to indicate Miitary Person Notability)
 * http://news.yahoo.com/an-army-of-ted-cruzes--louisiana-candidate-takes-a-page-from-a-tea-party-hero-175910493.html (Retired Air Force Col. Rob Maness is making a play for a U.S. Senate seat)
 * http://washingtonexaminer.com/conservative-group-skips-bill-cassidy-endorses-rob-maness-in-louisiana-senate-race/article/2538007 (Conservative group skips Bill Cassidy, endorses Rob Maness in Louisiana Senate race)
 * http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/6/maness-reports-raising-240000-for-us-senate-race/ (Maness reports raising $240,000 for US Senate race)
 * http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/02/abcs-14-for-14-hot-seat-meet-mary-landrieus-tea-party-challenger-rob-maness/ (Kick off election season with interview of Maness)
 * http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/31/2014-could-be-the-longest-election-season-ever.html (2014 Could Be The Longest Election Season Ever, Maness, Cassidy and Landrieu are the jungle primary candidates)
 * http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/senate-races/200259-maness-i-would-have-opposed-katrina-relief-bill (Federal Spending and Katrina Relief)
 * http://www.nola.com/opinions/index.ssf/2014/03/rob_maness_the_other_senate_ca.html (Rob Maness, the other Senate candidate)
 * https://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/gop-senate-candidate-people-losing-insurance-email-me_766393.html (Article about request for emails from people losing insurance)
 * http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/03/02/us/politics/senate-races-to-watch-in-2014.html?_r=0 (citing Maness and Cassidy as the Jungle Primary Candidates in Louisiana, see footnote)
 * http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/26/politics/republican-incumbents-senate/ (general tratement of mainstream vs teaparty candidates, mentions Maness briefly)
 * http://www.shreveporttimes.com/article/20140326/NEWS/303260034/Sen-Mary-Landrieu-Increase-U-S-natural-gas-exports-compete-Russia?nclick_check=1 (Maness quoted)
 * Radio and TV
 * Fox 14, TV Segment, http://www.myarklamiss.com/story/d/story/senate-candidate-rob-maness-visits-twin-cities/20864/o-PHtJvUEUmgsBwCnQLKcg
 * KTAL NBC 6, TV Interview, http://www.arklatexhomepage.com/story/d/story/republican-senate-candidates-cassidy-and-maness-st/32343/R7cRvtneA0-MKqDT9gcpnw
 * KNOE 8, TV Segment, http://www.knoe.com/category/178698/video-landing-page?clipId=9957578&topVideoCatNo=127380&autoStart=true
 * Exceptional Conservative Show, Radio Interview, starts at 12:00, http://www.blogtalkradio.com/theexceptionalconservativeshow/2014/03/18/louisiana-conservative-rob-maness-on-the-exceptional-conservative-show
 * Moon Griffon Show, Radio Interview, starts at 28:00, http://moongriffon.com/shows/moonwed.mp3
 * Doc Thompson Show, Radio Interview, https://soundcloud.com/docthompson/the-morning-blaze-with-doc-257
 * -Khronos21 (talk) 16:34, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Putting the citations into the article would bolster your case much more effectively than listing them here does. Bearcat (talk) 19:19, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Will do. I was planning on doing it, but I was not sure if I should list them here first. This is my first AfD talk, and I couldn't find AfD citation guidance in the help pages. I will get them up either tonight or tomorrow.Khronos21 (talk) 20:21, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, slakr  \ talk / 04:47, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the relist. I have gone through the page over the last 2 days and tried to integrate as much as possible as to what I think it should look like. I placed a major emphases on his military commands and career, since I think that is his strongest case for notability.Khronos21 (talk) 17:15, 2 April 2014 (UTC)


 * delete Even if he were the party nominee this would at best get a redirect to an article about the election itself. I'm pretty sure that even being a full colonel in the USAF isn't enough to justify an article on his own; this kind of command is typical at that level, not remarkable. Mangoe (talk) 19:08, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep There is no party primary in Louisiana, but I still think that his notability arises from number 6 in WikiProject Military history/Notability guide. He was commander and mayor of Kirtland Air Force Base, where he commanded over 23,000 military personnel, which is larger than a division, the low end of measure for "substantial body of troops".Khronos21 (talk) 20:51, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep He has received significant coverage from multiple reliable sources. Orser67 (talk) 18:58, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Based on the sources that have been added so far, I'm still seeing only a modest volume of sourcing, which still (a) relies disproportionately on coverage of his candidacy itself (which, again, is not a notability claim that justifies a Wikipedia article), (b) doesn't offer nearly enough sourcing to properly demonstrate notability as a military commander (which, again, is not a case of "commanded X number of troops = automatically in", if you can't demonstrate that he garnered substantive coverage for specific things he did while in military command), (c) relies entirely too much on cursory mentions of his name in overview coverage of the race and not nearly enough on substantive coverage about him, and (d) cites Breitbart (not a reliable source) and Combat Veterans for Congress (not an independent source). So no, "significant coverage from multiple reliable sources" still has not been properly demonstrated as things currently stand. Bearcat (talk) 06:10, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I did not realize Breitbart.com was not considered a reliable source. I am having a hard time tracking down additional military related articles due to the significant coverage of his campaign (I went 15 pages deep in Google and gave up, because although many articles talk about his Military Career and his heroics during 9/11, they seem to mostly talk about his campaign). However, under Notability (people), Politicians, "3. Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the primary notability criterion of 'significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject of the article'". The many cited articles seem for the most part to be reliable, independent and provide significant coverage, which would seem to meet primary notability.Khronos21 (talk) 19:43, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
 * That criterion doesn't confer notability on a candidate who garners media coverage only in the context of their candidacy itself — since the media are obligated to give "equal time" coverage to all candidates in a campaign, there's no such thing as a candidate who doesn't get media coverage at all, and so defining the criterion that broadly would cause us to have to accept every article about every candidate in every race. What's demanded, rather, is coverage that properly demonstrates that he was already notable enough to have a Wikipedia article before he became a candidate — in order for a candidate to become wikinotable for the candidacy itself, the candidacy would have to turn into a media frenzy along the lines of what happened to Christine O'Donnell (which I'm sure nobody wishes for). Bearcat (talk) 04:52, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.