Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robb Alvey (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Plausibly meets WP:N, balanced-ish headcount. Wily D 12:10, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Robb Alvey
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

There is also a related MFD going on about a draft page. Earlier tonight I speedied this as a G4 recreate of a deleted article, but a user asked that I undelete because they say they made substantial changes. I'm still not seeing a claim to notability, though. The sources used mostly mention Alvey because they're interviewing him about roller coasters or games that the articles are really about (e.g. ). Some of the articles go into more detail about him, e.g. 'here's how he became a roller coaster expert', but I suspect scarcely more than is written in this article can ever be written and referenced. Delete. delldot  &nabla;.  08:23, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep I'm the user that asked delldot to restore the article and I have been working on improving it. The subject, Robb Alvey, has been covered extensively in a number of news sources because of his activities with roller coasters, such as:




 * Not to mention that there's a significant amount of coverage written about his roller coaster website and the international tours he hosts. He was also host and expert on the Insane Coaster Wars television series. He is also a longtime video game producer at Activision, having worked on a number of games. I think all of this more than adds up to show notability. Silver  seren C 08:33, 22 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Note I just found this. Looks like canvassing may have been involved in the prior AfD. We should look out and make sure it doesn't happen this time. Silver  seren C 09:14, 22 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete This is at least the second or third time that Silver has attempted to skirt consensus of deletion on this page. It still does not meet notability and it belongs deleted with the masses of other self promoters that do not have a place on Wikipedia. I suspect the article may even have been self created. In fact, this should be deleted speedily along the timeline of discussion from the rogue skirting of deletion activity of Silver from this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Abandoned_Drafts/Robb_Alvey The "citations" include little more than his own hearsay based on his word of mouth and published on his website. Self promotion has no place on an academic website as Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.41.85 (talk) 17:27, 22 December 2012 (UTC) — 70.15.41.85 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep there is enough sources from reliable sources to establish notability. The current article should be history merged with the wikiproject copy and possible the deleted versions of the article.  GB fan 17:49, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete I suggest this article be merged back to the draft version that was about to be deleted in order to avert this backhanded action by Silver to skirt deletion on its own AfD. The conversation on that page was wiped clean by the action by Silver to create a mainspace page on this non-notable subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Abandoned_Drafts/Robb_Alvey — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.41.85 (talk) 18:33, 22 December 2012 (UTC)  — 70.15.41.85 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * You are only supposed to say your vote once in an AfD. Silver  seren C 21:21, 22 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 19:52, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:52, 22 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete Delete for the same reasons mentioned in the drafts AfD and the previous article AfD as well, we are on three or four AfDs that Silver has attempted to avoid deletion on this article. Julser1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julser1 (talk • contribs) 02:06, 23 December 2012 (UTC)  — Julser1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Except, during the previous AfD, the article looked like this, which clearly doesn't properly represent the notability of the subject. Therefore, the users commenting back then were not informed about such sources and the current article does a much better job expressing them. So you need to make an argument based on the current article related to the notability guidelines and not reference old discussions. Silver  seren C 03:41, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


 * It still faces the same notability issues. Self promotion, not of notability for Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.41.85 (talk) 07:54, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Self promotion has nothing to do with notability. We could have the article entirely be written by the subject themselves and it wouldn't matter, so long as they were notable. It just means that the article needs to be cleaned up to make sure it reads neutrally. And it clearly meets the General Notability Guideline. Silver  seren C 08:21, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "In particular, if reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a single event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having a biographical article on that individual." I suspect these articles were the result of him contacting the agencies to attempt to advertise his business. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.41.85 (talk) 18:35, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The sources aren't covering him in the context of a single event. None of the stuff about him is an event. Furthermore, he is clearly not a low-profile individual, considering he's a video game producer that has done a ton of interviews. And your opinion about him is nice, but you have no proof about the sources. Silver  seren C 19:09, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Speedy Keep The subject has been cited in a number of books, has been on TV news [here is CNBC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czm7mOqZ-pA], and in print [here is the Philadelphia Inquirer - http://articles.philly.com/2011-08-05/news/29854830_1_hard-core-coaster-enthusiasts-roller-coaster-kingda-ka - and here is IGN - http://www.ign.com/articles/2004/04/17/call-of-duty-united-offensive-interview]. A few minutes on Google can easily confirm the subject's notability; a few more minutes editing the article could bring it up to grade. And Adoil Descended (talk) 01:43, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Gah! *facepalms* I didn't even think to check Google Books. That was silly of me. I'll go look through it tomorrow and add the useful sources, as there do seem to be quite a few. Silver  seren C 08:16, 24 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: in order to keep everything together in one place, I have carried out a history-merge with the version that was in Abandoned Drafts and closed the MfD on that as delete. The whole history of the article is now in this version, and this AfD can decide its future. JohnCD (talk) 23:28, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That works. I just wanted to make sure that I kept up all of the attribution and everything, so the license wouldn't be violated. But a history merge fixes all that. Thanks. Silver  seren C 11:25, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete This subject is not notable to the point of necessitating a Wiki Article. This subject has gone through deletion and been approved several times and the result is still the same. This subject does not necessitate an article on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.200.232 (talk) 22:15, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Another IP! Hello, welcome to Wikipedia. While your opinion is appreciated, you unfortunately haven't backed up your statement with any of the notability rules or other guidelines that Wikipedia uses to determine whether articles should be kept or deleted in an Articles for Deletion discussion. Without those backing rules, your opinion remains just an opinion with no support. Silver  seren C 00:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * WP: A:7 seems to be the main issue with this article. The importance factor seems to be lacking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.200.232 (talk) 00:38, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I already explained above why he's important. His video game producer credits would be enough by themselves to give him notability. Silver  seren C 01:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Although he has received a number of mentions for his roller coaster travel agency, there doesn't seem to be much press about him personally - nothing that goes beyond the trivial mentions that will give us a reason to allow his bio to stick. Does not meet WP:ANYBIO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.200.232 (talk) 03:12, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I already represented sources up above. Sources like this are specifically about him and his job, which includes his website. Furthermore, there are a number of sources interviewing him about his job as a video game producer. These are not mentions, they are the entirety of the articles. Silver  seren C 03:31, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * An article from an obscure australian paper does not work. The mentions in articles about his travel agency are no different than when AAA travel agents plug their latest 7 day all inclusive trip to the Caribbean or Disney, not of importance or notability to be a subject on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.200.232 (talk) 04:02, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a nice opinion there, but the articles are entirely about him, regardless of whether you think they are "plugged" or not since you have no proof in that regard. The sources do not add up to notability, per the General Notability Guideline. Silver  seren C 04:33, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a nice opinion there, but there is only one article that is entirely about him, and that is an obscure Australian paper. The other few have some blurbs in them and do not add up to notability, per the General Notability Guideline in addition to him clearly not making WP:ANYBIO and not in line with WP:A7 — 67.249.200.232 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 16:43, 27 December 2012 (UTC).
 * Whether or not he meets the General Notability Guidelines is a matter of opinion. You are of the opinion that he does not and I am of the opinion that there is enough coverage that he does meet the guideline.  As far as WP:A7 is concerned, that does not apply because it has nothing to do with sources.  It only has to do with the existence of a credible claim of significance.  The article does make a credible claim of significance as multiple sources call him a roller coaster expert.  GB fan 17:05, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I would also suggest that being a producer for a major video game company (Activision) would be enough for the article to not be eligible for A7. That in itself may or may not be enough for the article to survive deletion but A7 sets a lower bar than notability and this article does not meet that criteria.--64.229.167.20 (talk) 22:26, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There is nothing anywhere that says he was a major producer with Activision, unsubstantiated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.200.232 (talk) 00:03, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The article does not say he is a major producer for Activision, it says he is a producer for activision. There are two sources in the paragraph that you removed that says he is a producer for activision.  GB fan 00:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Taking a closer look that may not be right after all. The Boy and his blob article does mention him as producer but the only reference to Actvision is a question of whether or not Activision`s co-founder David Crane (the creator of the original games) was involved. Since Activision seems to be not involved in this project he most likely was involved with one of the other companies that made that game (Majesco the producer or WayForward the developer). The second link does involve Activision but it lists Alvey as the senior producer of Gray Matter Studios (the developer of the game) and not Activision (the producer) I stil believe there is enough to keep the article but it appears that it will need to be corrected to some extent.--64.229.167.20 (talk) 01:09, 28 December 2012 (UTC)--64.229.167.20 (talk) 01:09, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that, over his career as a video game producer, he's worked with a number of different companies and groups. Producers are one of the few kinds of people that have that sort of freedom, since they often aren't tied to just one company. This should probably be represented in the article and the section should be reworded to reflect that, since he did work with Activision for a time, as the sources note, but he appears to currently be working with WayForward Technologies. It would just take a bit of sorting through the games to find the timeline of who he's worked with, though. Silver seren C 03:37, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear I am not calling for deletion but simply that the article should be rewritten to clarify what companies he was a producer for and when.--64.229.167.20 (talk) 00:49, 29 December 2012 (UTC)--64.229.167.20 (talk) 00:49, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Scubasteve442 (talk) 10:20, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - previous AfD consensus was DELETE, lack of notability. Per computing articles guidelines, articles on blogs or forums are subject to deletion. significant portions of his visibility is as a forum operator. Arguably, his other aspects, video game producer and roller coaster 'expert' result in high profile behavior for self-promotion, but overall notability is still low. Minimal media coverage, even in trade media does not confer general notability.
 * Hello, new editor. Welcome to Wikipedia. I'm glad you decided to join this discussion with your first edit. However, as you should know from reading the above discussion, the article that the previous AfD was considering was one that didn't have any proper references and the Delete decision was decided because of that. The current article is far different from that past version and more properly represents the notability of the subject.


 * It should also be noted that this is not a Computing article, but a biography of a living person, which means that the rules for the subject's notability would fall under WP:Notability (people). Within this, it is clear that the subject passes the basic guideline handily from the available references.


 * And as I noted in above discussion, claims of self-promotion need to be backed up with proof, otherwise they are just claims. Lastly, it is also quite clear that the media coverage is not minimal, but actually fairly expansive on the subject and spans a period of years. Silver  seren C 10:51, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I did not say that the article is self-promotion, rather that his media mentions are mostly self-promotion of his web presence. His general notability is nil, based on the small sampling of mentions in trade articles. His primary presence in media is from his hobby activity, roller coasters. His more notable contribution is as a video game producer, but he has virtually no media visibility as such. Also, as currently written, article seems to be out of date again, records show he no longer resides in California.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scubasteve442 (talk • contribs) 19:30, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The two of you seem to be contradicting each other. You're saying that his coverage in trade articles doesn't give the subject notability and, below, 67.249 says that there aren't any sources from trade periodicals, so he's non-notable.


 * However, if you actually look at the sources, you'd see that they are mainstream news periodicals. Furthermore, a Google Books search brings up coverage like this. Not to mention gaming periodical coverage like this, this, and this. Silver  seren C 00:03, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

An article from an obscure Australian paper, and mentions in one or two other random stories does not cover "significant coverage." I also do not see a single source from a theme park "periodical." Also, no sources note him working for Activision. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.200.232 (talk) 15:43, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * There are far more than mentions in the other sources. And coverage from subject specific periodicals isn't required. In fact having general news coverage is far more representative of notability, since the coverage isn't only from niche publications.


 * Secondly, you are being too literal. Alvey works for Gray Matter Interactive which is owned by Activision and they were specifically approached by Activision to work on the Call of Duty expansion. The article could certainly use some more clarification in that regard but he definitely worked with Activision. Oh, and thanks for having me go look for more sources, because I found a good one. Silver  seren C 00:12, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep there appears to be enough coverage in mainstream sources to justify an article and the previous AFD is irrelevant to this discussion since this article is vastly improved compared to the version that was deleted previously.--64.229.167.20 (talk) 01:21, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Still does not meet notability to be a subject on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.200.232 (talk) 19:17, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.