Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert Avanesyan


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  MBisanz  talk 00:23, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Robert Avanesyan

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This is a biographical article of a living person, however, it fails the basic criteria for notability of a person which states that he or she has been the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject. A Google search reviews that the subject is a relatively obscure wrestler who is not decorated in the sport with only trivial coverage. Holyfield1998 (talk) 13:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - per WP:ATHLETE, Avanesyan is an amateur Greco-Roman wrestler who competed at a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level (the 2011 Amateur Wrestling World Championship, and the 2012 European Wrestling Championships). --Yankees 76 Talk 13:28, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - I took a look at that myself, and the guidelines say at the "highest level." For Greco-Roman wrestling the highest level would be the Olympics. We could have literally hundreds of articles on obscure Greco-Roman wrestlers if we were to include all participants in the Amateur Wrestling Championships and the European Wrestling Championships which occur annually. Also, the lone source in the article to establish notability is of trivial coverage and not primarily related to the subject. Holyfield1998 (talk) 13:34, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - by your logic a runner like Donald Paige who competed at the Pan Am Games, but missed the Olympics due the boycott would not notable. In the absence of specific wrestler notability guidelines, competing at a World Championships is considered a level high enough to pass the notability guideline. The number of articles on "obscure" wrestlers that could be made is meaningless - as Wikipedia is not limited by the number of articles on athletes provided they meet notability standards. --Yankees 76 Talk 14:24, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - The main difference between Donald Paige and Robert Avanesyan is that Donald Paige is highly decorated in the sport, being ranked #1 at one point, had set the American record in the sport, and is the subject of multiple published secondary sources so Baige qualifies for other reasons listed. Robert Avanesyan on the other hand lacks all the aforementioned so I do not believe he meets the notability standards. Holyfield1998 (talk) 14:31, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - I myself would say that the World Championships for wrestling is not at the highest level is also an opinion.

Who are you anyway Holyfield? You've been trying to delete everything I edit since you joined two days ago. There's no way someone who has been on Wikipedia for two days knows enough about the rules to debate if an article should be deleted or not. You seem like a sock to me. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 16:18, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Avanesyan's lack of success internationally in his sport does not diminish his notability. He merely needs to compete at a World Championships, Olympics or other major international competition at the highest level. He's done this. Therefore by Wikipedia standards, he's notable enough to have his own article. See also Elis Guri or Cenk İldem. --Yankees 76  Talk 15:00, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Both examples of Guri and İldem are highly decorated in their sport by medaling (Gold for Guri and Bronze for İldem) so those two have achieved international success while Avanesyan has not. Holyfield1998 (talk) 15:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - can you point to me the pertinent Wikipedia notability guideline for wrestlers that says wrestlers who medal in an event are notable, while those who do not, at the same Championships, are not? --Yankees 76 Talk 15:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - I wasn't at all suggesting that medaling in those events is what made Guri and İldem notable alone. Both Guri and İldem also participated at the Olympics and a Google search reveal many notable secondary sources about the two. So they would meet notability for different reasons. The same cannot be said of Avanesyan. Holyfield1998 (talk) 15:27, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Also, Ehud Vaks is a very similar case to Avanesyan because he has had little international success but is still notable for political reasons and has at least competed on a high level. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 15:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Ehud Vaks participated at the 2004 Summer Olympics. Holyfield1998 (talk) 15:30, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Robert Avanesyan participated at the 2011 World Championships. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 15:33, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Yes, but that is not a guideline for notability for wrestling, while the Olympics is indeed a general guideline for notability. Holyfield1998 (talk) 15:42, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Wrestling isn't listed on the WP page Yankees linked. But most of the sports accept people who've competed at the World Championships and Olympics. The Olympics are only considered more special because of how media treats it. In the end, the only difference between the Olympics and World championships is that the Olympics usually takes place less often. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 15:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - There is no specific policy on wrestling which has gained consensus so we can't just apply the policies of other sports to wrestling as if it is approved policy which has gained the consensus of the community. Note that some sports such as Triathlon require a podium finish at the next highest level outside of the Olympics and merely particpating is not sufficient. As a result, we have to use the general guidelines to evaluate. Holyfield1998 (talk) 15:54, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Where are the general guidelines? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 16:03, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Yes, and the generally acceptable standards says "Sports figures are presumed notable (except as noted within a specific section) if they: have participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level such as the Olympics." Since the World Championships is a major international competition at the highest level and since there are no exceptions in a specific section for wrestling, Avanesyan passes the generally accepted standards for notability. See WP:ATHLETE. --Yankees 76 Talk 16:03, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - That is a part of this debate. I myself would say that the World Championships for wrestling is not at the highest level, with the Olympics holding this sole distinction. Holyfield1998 (talk) 16:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - that's a strawman argument. Any sports World Championships are the highest level of competition in that sport. Wrestling is no different.--Yankees 76 Talk 16:11, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - That is an opinion and not policy, there's no policy on Wikipedia stating any World Championships are at the highest level. Holyfield1998 (talk) 16:13, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - you may wish the change the Wikipedia article for World championship then (or maybe nominate that for deletion too). --Yankees 76 Talk 16:16, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Thanks for pointing that out, it should be changed as it is uncited and is possibly written in a POV manner. But again, a Wikipedia article that anyone can write is not policy. Holyfield1998 (talk) 16:18, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - that's beside the point. The International Federation of Associated Wrestling Styles (FILA) is the sports governing body with Representatives from 174 national federations; and is also the body responsible for supervising Olympic wrestling,. Their World Championships is the highest level of competition for that sport. This isn't opinion, and there certainly isn't a Wikipedia policy required to confirm this. Saying that a World Championships is not the highest level of competition because of a lack of Wikipedia policy saying so is a strawman argument. Note WP:ATHLETE's wording - "such as" the Olympics. Not "only" the Olympics to the exclusion of all other international competition. The Olympics are given as an example. If you wish to present your case as to why the FILA Wrestling World Championships should not be considered a "major international competition at the highest level", you should do so now. --Yankees 76 Talk 16:29, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Debating this is the purpose of this nomination no? As for a strawman argument, I could say your same reasoning is an informal fallacy as well. I think we are both firm in our opinions and we have both made our points pretty clear so lets see how this nomination turns out. Holyfield1998 (talk) 17:10, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep: Ehud Vaks is a very similar case to Avanesyan because he has had little international success but is still notable for political reasons and has at least competed on a high level. Wrestling isn't listed on the WP page Yankees linked. But most of the sports accept people who've competed at the World Championships and Olympics. And Holyfield, stop stalking my edits or I'll get the Admins involved. You are clearly a sock of someone who was banned. Stop or I'll see to it you are banned again. TheShadowCrow (talk) 21:31, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, the Vaks case is quite different because he did compete at the Olympics so his notability is not being questioned. Papaursa (talk) 03:10, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:11, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:11, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment Has not competed in the Olympics so does not seem to pass WP:ATHLETE despite Yankees76's assertion, so can someone provide links to the "significant coverage" in reliable sources so as to demonstrate the subject passes WP:N ? otherwise this should be deleted. Mt  king  (edits)  08:24, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete, no notability has been demonstrated according to WP:ATHLETE. He did not qualified for the Olympics, and in the World Championships he only advanced to the second round and lost, and only because the Iranian refused to fight against him. May be later he will become prominent, but for now it is a WP:ONEEVENT case.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:44, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete As per the above reason.Peter Rehse (talk) 14:06, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete Fails WP:ATHLETE. Finishing in a tie for 20th (out of 24) with no victories at the European Championships shows he's not at the top level. Mdtemp (talk) 21:16, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Lacks notability, not every athlete is notable enough to get own article. Athletes in my opinion are overrepresented on Wikipedia as it is, see American football players. Even insignificant semi-pro players have pages.--0pen$0urce (talk) 14:37, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 10:43, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - A participant at an international championship tournament does not equate with participation at the Olympics, in my estimation. That's ultimately the question that this comes down to, does it not, whether or not such participation is sufficient for a pass under the special guideline for athletes? Carrite (talk) 17:28, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - All, please note the wording in WP:ATHLETE "Sports figures are presumed notable (except as noted within a specific section) if they: have participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level such as the Olympics." This does not mean that it's Olympics or nothing. Numerous athletes compete at World Championships for their sport, whether it's track, hockey, wrestling, rugby, boxing, cricket, baseketball etc but do not compete at the Olympics for numerous reasons (injury, boycott, poor qualifying results). "The Olympics" in the guideline are merely used as an example, not as the only sporting event that makes an athlete notable. One should consider World Championships and World Cups as a major international amateur or professional competition. Like the Olympics, the highest ranked athletes from each country attend and compete at these events. Also it should be noted that Avanesyan's mediocre placings at these events does not affect his notabilty - he merely needs to compete, or otherwise WP:ATHLETE would say "win" or "place" instead of "participate" (and if it does and I'm missing something, please direct me to the appropriate guideline). Thanks. --Yankees 76  Talk 19:52, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I notice. The question is, does a participant in a so-called world championship tournament of a third tier sporting event accorded an auto-pass under the (ludicrously out of step with the other special guidelines of Wikipedia) WP:ATHLETE? I'm fine with auto-passes for Olympians. This does not rise to that level, in my opinion. Carrite (talk) 23:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * This is an interesting discussion. Since there is no specific guidelines for wrestling, I checked the guidelines for martial artists (WP:MANOTE) and boxing (WP:NBOX).  MANOTE talks about being an Olympic participant, world champion, or "repeated medalist in another  significant event", while NBOX says you need to be ranked in the world top 10 or have been in a bout for the world title.  Avanesyan doesn't seem to meet either of these criteria. Papaursa (talk) 03:10, 3 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment - At the end of the day, it looks like the subject of the article fails WP:N as Mtking stated or more specifically, WP:GNG which states there should be significant coverage of the subject and not just trivial coverage. And as Ymblanter mentioned, this does look like a WP:ONEEVENT case. Holyfield1998 (talk) 23:21, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete as per my comment above, no sources have been forthcoming that demonstrates notability. Mt  king  (edits)  06:34, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - after reading through the comments, I think that Avanesyan requires more coverage for him to be considered notable enough for this own article. As of now I don't believe that there is enough WP:RS material for an editor to create an article that would pass a WP:GAN - World Championship appearance or not. While he may be the best wrestler in Israel at this weight category, it appears that his third party coverage is lacking and despite a number of hours wasted I could not even locate his birth date or place. I change my opinion to Delete. Great feedback from all. Thanks. --Yankees 76 Talk 15:58, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.