Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert Charles Llewelyn


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Winged Blades Godric  03:01, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Robert Charles Llewelyn

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Article is principally an obituary (the issue being WP:NOTOBITUARY). References consist of an obituary from the Telegraph and an article from a personal blog. It looks like he was awarded the Cross of St. Augustine in 1998, but there is no indication that this award is selective/ competitive and therefore it is probably not a good measure of actual notability. Having published a series of "Daily Readings" is not enough to make a notability claim. A Google search turns up only 11 hits on his name, and most of these are reiterations of his obituary. KDS4444 (talk) 19:36, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.   CAPTAIN RAJU  (✉)   20:39, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions.   CAPTAIN RAJU  (✉)   20:39, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

The decision as to whether or not to delete this article is of course entirely a matter to be decided in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines.

I would mention two things. First, Robert Charles Llewelyn did not just publish daily readings - as the list of books in the article under consideration made clear, he published a number of of other books, entirely written by himself.

Second, he was a recipient of the Cross of St Augustine. This is the second highest international award given in the Anglican communion, in recognition of an outstanding contribution to Anglicanism or ecumenism. It is highly selective.[But see WP:ITSNOTABLE ] A number of other recipients of the Cross of St Augustine have Wikipedia articles: and there is a Wikipedia Category for recipients of the Cross. I have added some information about this to the article, including Archbishop George Carey describing Robert Llewelyn as one of the outstanding spiritual teachers of the time.

--Mfcayley (talk) 21:04, 16 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Note: The above comment was placed on the Wikipedia talk page of this AfD in good faith. I have copied it here as a courtesy to the user who left it. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 21:41, 16 May 2017 (UTC)


 * (Comment): From the current Wikipedia article on the Cross of St Augustine: "There is no limit on the number of recipients, although the Cross is said to be awarded to 'a small number of clergy and lay people each year'." This description strikes me as not being particularly selective, but...?? Also: while I understand that awards such as this are meant to be an indicator of a person's notability, they are not usually by themselves considered complete evidence of this— evidence still would need to exist in the form of non-trivial discussion of the subject in published independent reliable secondary sources, something I was not been able to locate for this person.) KDS4444 (talk) 10:57, 17 May 2017 (UTC))


 * Very few people receive the Cross. Typically there have been about a dozen - or less - awards of the Cross a year for the whole worldwide Anglican communion. According to Wikipedia there are estimated to be some 85 million Anglicans around the world: so the chances of an Anglican receiving the cross are probably less than the chances of a UK citizen receiving a UK peerage. --Mfcayley (talk) 12:30, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:ACADEMIC and WP:GNG. I found an obituary from the (London) Times[But see WP:ROUTINE ] and some reviews of his work in academic journals and periodicals, which I added to the article.Do any of these discuss the subject himself in any depth? My review of them doesn't seem to show this... KDS4444 (talk) He is widely cited in texts on Julian of Norwich, as a search will confirm, and several sources will confirm his importance (some referenced in the article), plus the award which may not in itself guarantee notability but shows his importance in the academic field of theology.But what we need are not just assertions of his notability or even evidence that others have cited his work but evidence of him having been the non-trivial subject of discussion in multiple reliable independent published sources. KDS4444 (talk) --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Please reply to comments in the usual fashion as described in WP:TALK, beneath them and indented, rather than inserting them into someone else's post.
 * Please also refer to specific sections of guidelines and how they are met or not met, rather than just waving around their name like a flag. WP:ROUTINE refers to announcements of events such as weddings, everyday regular happenings like sport reports, and "bear-in-a-tree or local-person-wins-award" news stories. It does not mention obituaries, although it might apply to death notices: having obituaries in 2 of the UK's leading national newspapers is certainly not something that happens to everyone. The Telegraph obituary in particular is long and detailed.
 * WP:ACADEMIC says that notability can be established by showing that someone is widely cited (notes on criterion #1) or acknowledged as having made an important in their field (criterion #1), this being not merely asserted by the article but demonstrated by references. These are not precise criteria, but there is evidence of them both in quotations and the award, and is demonstrated by references.
 * WP:ACADEMIC criterion #2 (the one about awards) does not specify exactly what award is considered sufficient, but an award given by a (very) notable body with a long association with academia (the Church of England) for academic work would at least act as supporting evidence. You claim that the Cross of St Augustine is not selective, but it is given to a very few people each year, which appears to fulfil the definition of selective. The only higher award in the Church of England is the Archbishop of Canterbury's Award for Outstanding Service to the Anglican Communion which has only ever been given to 2 people.
 * You claim that neither the obituaries nor the reviews of his work (including 2 from the prestigious journal Theology) discuss Llewelyn: on the contrary, the obituaries discuss his life and work in detail, and the articles discuss his ideas and his books; in an article on a writer what matters is their ideas, and naturally sources will primarily discuss their works. I'm also curious how you managed in just 11 minutes to review articles in old editions of journal not widely available online and pronounce them irrelevant. --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:41, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

I apologise if I am not following conventions on layout and indentation - or anything else: please be forbearing about this. This is the first time I have participated in a discussion like this, and I am not familiar with the conventions. I have posted an indented comment above about the very small number of recipients of the Cross of St Augustine - and I have added information about the number to the Wikipedia article on the Cross (typically at most around a dozen a year, some years less than 10, for the whole worldwide Anglican communion of - according to Wikipedia - some 85 million). I have also made several changes to the article under discussion here. I have managed to consult online Crockford's Clerical Directory (via my membership of a subscription library which gives electronic access), which I have added as a main source in the Life section, and also birth and death records. So the Life section is no longer reliant for the most part solely on an obituary. I have added to, and edited, the section on Robert Llewelyn's writings, including separating out the books of which he was just a compiler as opposed to having been the original author. --Mfcayley (talk) 12:49, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I would have liked also to consult the online Church Times archive - a search shows up the existence of several articles, including for the year in which Robert Llewelyn received the Cross of St Augustine - but I do not, unfortunately, have access. --Mfcayley (talk) 13:15, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: I think the  comment regarding formatting and indenting is targeted at .  please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks, &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 13:46, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep. I'm surprised to see this even nominated. An obit in tThe Times has uniformly been considered here as a sufficiently reliable evidence for nationality The only other paper we say that for by itself is the NYTimes, but the obit in The Telegraph is strong additional evidence. If we dont count this as reliable sourcing, what do we count? It's not our role to argue for why he is considered notable, tho he does seem to be a notable schoolmaster and writer, and probably meets WP:AU?THOR even without the obits.  DGG ( talk ) 05:52, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep. For reasons clear from what I have said above. An author who was well-known in parts of the Christian world in his last 3 decades, gained academic and non-academic recognition, and was given a highly selective award. With achievements enough to earn him obituaries in two leading UK newspapers.... Though, as the author of the original version of this article (now much-improved - thank you to everyone who has helped in this) - I may not be allowed a say under Wikipedia rules: if not, please disregard this. --Mfcayley (talk) 20:03, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:38, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:38, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:38, 23 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment. Author of BIO did himself little credit by not stating the subject's writing name. By searching GS for "R Llewelyn" Norwich" I find very few cites, low even for theology. odd. However Keep because of the obits. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:49, 23 May 2017 (UTC).
 * Keep per and . His advocacy of Norwich and major awards make him notable; the Times and Telegraph obits are strong evidence therefor. Bearian (talk) 00:00, 24 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.