Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert Trump (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was WP:SNOW keep. There is no reasonable prospect for deletion at this time, and well-supported case for notability based on sufficient coverage in reliable sources. BD2412 T 22:25, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Robert Trump
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Robert is not a notable member of the Trump family. The only reason people know he exists now is from his death announced by Donald. None of the sources show any coverage that meet GNG or the appropriate SNG (BIO in this case). M asem (t) 13:12, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. M asem  (t) 13:12, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. TJMSmith (talk) 13:14, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. TJMSmith (talk) 13:14, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Family_of_Donald_Trump, as it used to be, per nominator. --Tone 13:14, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. As usual, people are misinterpreting WP:NOTINHERITED. Robert Trump did not need to have done anything of note in his own right. The real question is if there is in-depth specific and detailed coverage of him by reliable sources. There is plenty of that. There are obituaries in many newspapers, like this one in NYT, which specifically covers the life of Robert Trump, as separate from Donald. In addition, there was Robert Trump's lawusuit against the publication of Mary Trump's book that received a lot of coverage in June-July. That is also new compared to 2017. Plenty enough here to meet the requirements of WP:GNG. Nsk92 (talk) 13:21, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Generally, cover of an event like a trial does not necessarily make a person notable per WP:BLP1E. There has to be more about that. The fact that we're only getting coverage with obits is a bit worrisome showing that there was little notability before his death and only because his connection to Donald is he getting more attention now. --M asem (t) 14:38, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Concerning how? Notability is significant coverage. The theory he is only getting coverage because of who he is may or may not be true, but there are no policies or guidelines that say people who receive significant coverage must also be accomplished (arguably he is anyway), or are not allowed to have a famous relative (or infamous), when there are reliable sources. --  Green  C  19:39, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep The person's notability stems from a widely-notable person relative to him as is the case with this article (e.g. US President). --CaeserKaiser (talk) 13:47, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep meets WP:BIO and WP:GNG. Plenty of media coverage about him. This is Paul (talk) 13:51, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. He's the brother of the most powerful person on Earth, FFS. Wjfox2005 (talk) 14:04, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That is an argument we flat out reject per WP:NOTINHERITED --M asem (t) 14:11, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, come on now! I !voted to keep, but the reason you give is exactly what WP:NOTINHERITED specifically excludes: Merely being related to someone famous (even the most bigliest very famosest person of them all) is not a valid reason for keeping the article. The question is if significant specific and detailed coverage of him exists. You'd have to provide a better rationale than being "the brother of the most powerful person on Earth". Nsk92 (talk) 14:14, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and suggest speedy close. WP:RS in the target article indicate notability before the death. --LaserLegs (talk) 14:18, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect per WP:NOTINHERITED and Tone. What sources there are would not exist if not for his brother being the US President, and even the obits discuss him in relation to his family. The fact he filed a lawsuit does not establish notability for him personally, as it all had to do with the Trump family. I don't believe the sources establish him as notable on his own. The information on Family of Donald Trump seems sufficient. Rhino131 (talk) 14:18, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The reasons those sources exists are immaterial. The fact that they exist and that they provide specific and detailed coverage is what makes him notable, by definition of notability in terms of WP:GNG. Nsk92 (talk) 14:23, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * My point is that the sources do not establish him as notable outside of his family, so that a separate article is not warranted outside of Family of Donald Trump. Rhino131 (talk) 15:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep Lot of media coverage, also was influential in the Trump Organization Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 14:20, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect. He wasn't notable enough to have an article before he died, coverage of his death doesn't override WP:NOTINHERITED or WP:BLP1E. Black Kite (talk) 14:48, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and suggest speedy close per LaserLegs. --Patriccck (talk) 15:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per the arguments given by Nsk92. Andysmith248 (talk) 15:05, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Commment Those that want to keep, please show demonstration of sources before his death that show in-depth/significant coverage of him. The lawsuit is not detailed coverage him but just an event he was involved with and can be covered in other notable topics. --M asem (t) 15:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Why?? Coverage is coverage, and coverage after death also counts towards notability. There is no artificial division in WP:GNG in notability "before" and "after" death. Nsk92 (talk) 15:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Death, like everything else, is an event in a person's life, and thus WP:BIO1E would apply. Add in the NOTINHERITED factor and unless we can show Robert was significantly notable before death (not just name dropped as part of being in a company or the like), which nothing added to the article since the nomination has expanded on, this is not appropriate for a standalone. Redirection to the Trump family page is fine where the core details can be added. --M asem (t) 18:36, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete He doesn't appear to be notable. I couldn't find any articles of his notability before his death other than some about how he's been sick and hospitalized in the past, that he was employed by Donald Trump's company and was retired, and more recently that he tried to stop the publication of a family member's book. Two Bananas (talk) 15:26, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - per WP:NOTINHERITED, nearly ever single source that I looked at is about Donald Trump and then mentions his brother as an after thought. Inter&#38;anthro (talk) 15:30, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep While he wasn't known by the public, this Wikipedia page existed before he passed away, meaning many sources had written about him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by M. Martinez 2020 (talk • contribs) 15:33, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Not true, it's been a redirect for the last three years, since the previous AfD. P-K3 (talk) 16:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep whilst it is not well known before his death, this article about him was existed before, many reliable source found in that. 182.1.235.54 (talk) 15:44, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * No, it was a redirect. P-K3 (talk) 16:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete, per WP:NOTINHERITED and WP:BLP1E as well as WP:RECENTISM. —Brigade Piron (talk) 15:47, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect as before. Nothing worthwhile to say about him that can't be done in the Family of Donald Trump article. P-K3 (talk) 15:50, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep There is a lot of media coverage about him. Telescopegenius (talk) 15:56, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete per nominator or redirect as before. The article was a stub from February 11, 2017, until the redirect on April 8, 2017.  His "notability" is based on these events: he got divorced on the NY society gossip pages in 2007,  his niece wrote a book about his brother D. Trump who was president at the time, and he died on August 15, 2020, while his brother was president. On August 16, 2020, editors started copying text from obituaries and parts of D. Trump’s bio.  The obits in several of the sources also didn’t manage to separate R. Trump’s bio from D.  Trump’s. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:25, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep, wow it the first time I remember both recently died and deletion happened simultaneously. TDS much? Whatever, I visted this page like 3 days ago and also if you will see his wife is a popular Google query. So... 91.78.221.238 (talk) 17:04, 16 August 2020 (UTC) — 91.78.221.238 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * ^ WP:GOOGLEHITS is not a strong argument. KidAd (talk) 18:43, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. I had heard of Robert Trump long before his brother became the President. He was well-known enough in the 1990s that he could be mentioned in lists of socialites without needing to be identified and without reference to his brother Donald (see, ). As a second choice, redirect as before. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 17:13, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep (edit conflict x1) - Both sides have valid points, but I think he had enough reasonable coverage before his death to qualify. Foxnpichu (talk) 17:14, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. Notability is evident: just read the article. Dan the Animator 18:12, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Per WP:NOTINHERITED and WP:BLP1E. KidAd (talk) 18:43, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep, per above. Subject notable enough for an article. Death is all over the news, career and personal life aspects notable enough for an article. ~ Destroyeraa 🌀 18:46, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Family of Donald Trump as I said in the previous AFD, family affiliations on their own don't make one notable enough for a separate article. WP:BIOFAMILY still applies here. The trial isn't enough for him to warrant his own page, and neither are obituaries as those are routine coverage for when people die. At most, the former amounts to WP:BIO1E. Most citations outside of these matters that do discuss Robert tend to be more about his Presidential brother Donald. Was this guy noted for much of his own merit that doesn't have to do with family? The answer last AFD was no and that hasn't changed for this one. Wikipedia also shouldn't become Trump-o-pedia by having so many articles on Donald's family and other related matters when not all of them are article-worthy. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 18:55, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep tons of coverage in newspapers and books over an extended period. See WP:BEFORE. --  Green  C  19:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment As usual WP:NOTINHERETED is misinterpreted and misapplied. The essay concerns "arguments to avoid during AfD discussions". Almost no one is making the argument to keep simply because he is Donald Trump's brother. If my vote said "Keep because he is the President's brother", then yes, that is what WP:NOTINHERETED is referring to. But no one is doing that, and rarely do. The essay is based on WP:NRVE, which requires verifiable sources.  --  Green  C  19:29, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: The article needs to be improved sure, but it's not so mangled that it needs to be deleted. Subject meets all criteria for having an article. Even if Donald wasn't president, he'll still deserve it. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 20:22, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Meets WP:GNG. Also, WP:NOTINHERITED and WP:BLP1E don't apply here. WP:NOTINHERITED specifically says that people known solely for having a relationship with someone famous can be notable if they pass WP:GNG. So, determining if he has enough significant coverage in reliable sources is what matters - period - not a Wikipedia essay about how to have a productive AfD discussion. And WP:BLP1E is about one event - saying the Mary Trump book court case is "one event" would ignore that he got significant coverage during many events - a questionable government contract, during Donald's presidency in general (in which he receives the most significant coverage), work on the Taj Majal casino, his death (which give detailed biographies, not just the date and who he was), and in general. I can likely find more on newspaper websites if this is somehow not enough. - Whisperjanes (talk) 20:23, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. Davey2116 (talk) 20:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: article has enough sources from before his death to pass GNG on its own.  Nixinova   T   C </b>  20:59, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep WP:NOTINHERITED is neither a policy nor a guidelines, but for those who want to cite it as reason to delete, do please note that it states: The fact of having a famous relative is not, in and of itself, sufficient to justify an independent article. Individuals in close, personal relationships with famous people (including politicians) can have an independent article even if they are known solely for such a relationship, but only if they pass WP:GNG. There is evidently enough coverage around the world of this person to pass WP:GNG with ease. Nick Moyes (talk) 21:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That WP:NOTINHERITED is neither a policy nor a guideline rings kind of hollow considering that WP:INVALIDBIO is a guideline and makes the same point (That person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being a spouse or child, is not a reason for a standalone article on A (unless significant coverage can be found on A); relationships do not confer notability. However, person A may be included in the related article on B. For example, Jason Allen Alexander is included in the article on Britney Spears and the page Jason Allen Alexander merely redirects to that article.). TompaDompa (talk) 21:58, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm counting 22 Keeps, 5 Redirects, and 5 Deletes. I think there is a consensus to Keep this page. Dan the Animator 21:50, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This is not an election. Votes are evaluated by arguments and policy, and many of the Keeps! are weak in those areas. KidAd (talk) 21:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * KidAd, the number of keeps overwhelm the number of deletes or redirects, which means deleting this would result in many unhappy editors and someone would retrieve the deleted article. ~ Destroyeraa 🌀 22:22, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Please remember NOTAVOTE. -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:55, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Notable prior to his death due to his work with the Trump organization and his lawsuit regarding Mary L. Trump. Passes GNG.Pennsylvania2 (talk) 21:56, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment given this is time sensitive for ITN, I've submitted this nom for an RfC --LaserLegs (talk) 22:05, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree to close. The 20+ keeps overwhelm the 6 or 7 redirects and 5 or 6 deletes. ~ Destroyeraa 🌀 22:18, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.