Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rocky Dzidzornu


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Sources have been added, but they are all rather passing mentions, so the jury is still out as concerns notability.  Sandstein  07:29, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Rocky Dzidzornu

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Does not pass WP:MUSICIAN, let alone the General Notability Guidelines. GHits are all Wikipedia mirrors, passing mentions, or unreliable sources. Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:49, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:RS don't care, so neither do we. Chester Markel (talk) 05:11, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Undoubtedly the article is poorly written, and un-sourced; it needs a complete overhaul. However, he may qualify under notability depending on your interpretation of WP:MUSICBIO #6, as he has appeared on several important albums.  Likewise he may qualify under Other #2.  This article is no orphan.  He has the briefest of mentions under Allmusic.  If you check Google news there are several valid references, and a check of Google books gives even more information.  (search under Rocky Dijon).  78.26  (talk) 05:42, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The Google books results for "Rocky Dijon" all seem to be one sentence or less about this person. Is there anything more substantial? There's no point in having an article if there's not enough material in reliable sources from which to write it. Using the Google books results as references would only support content of the form "Rocky Dzidzornu performed with group W, at event X, on date Y..." Chester Markel (talk) 06:09, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The GNG requires in-depth coverage in reliable sources. So far nothing is in-depth. Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:13, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 00:01, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep - what, are you all crazy? Man does sessions with Stones, Hendrix, Joe Walsh, Nick Drake - he's one of the most significant African session drummers of the sixties, along with Remi, Ginger Johnson and Gaspar Lawal. You don't delete articles on notable musicians because they're badly written! Redheylin (talk) 12:06, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Please provide reliable sources to show that he passes the General Notability Guidelines. Without sources to show how notable he is, he doesn't pass. You can't just vote keep because you think he's important. Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:46, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I am sure you mean WP:NMUSIC ? The subject is notable because;
 * 5 Has released two or more albums
 * 7 Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city;
 * 10 Has performed music for a work of media that is notable


 * You can understand and verify the first and last, I am sure: RD is credited on the cover of "Let it Bleed" and "Sticky Fingers" and these are supposed to be in the top 10 MOST notable products of rock. And you can also verify he recorded congas for Hendrix, Drake, The Young Rascals, Herbie Hancock, Stevie Wonder, Ginger Baker? And you can find his albums on sale?


 * But there's more. As Stapleton and May say in African All Stars (Paladin 1989, p 297) " For the past 40 years Britain has had a regular community of African musicians... The rock bands who flourished in the late 1960s nodded briefly in the right direction.. it did at least open the door to the first tentative flowering of a British... African music scene". This is how RD, along with Fela Kuti, Ginger Johnson, Reebop Kwaku Ba, Gaspar Lawal and Remi Kabaka, represent a "notable style". It happens Stapleton and May do not mention RD by name, though they mention the Stones, and you are right that all this is badly represented on the www at present. Look at Music of Africa and it will tell you that Paul Simon was the first to use African musicians! This is a bad state of affairs, because it is not so. To do credit to this matter, of which I have just become aware, I shall have to look for some printed material. Meanwhile, you may verify two other reasons for keeping, and take my word on the third. Redheylin (talk) 23:56, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Does African All Stars specifically discuss him? To even get to the point where we have to consider WP:MUSICIAN, we must first pass the WP:GNG; nothing seems in-depth, which fails the General Notability Guidelines. Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:15, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, he certainly "has been a member of two or more independently notable ensembles". I guess you are looking for biographical information? That does exist, but I shall have to look. But are you sure that other notable session musicians like Hal Blaine and Carol Kaye pass this test? Redheylin (talk) 00:21, 25 May 2011 (UTC)


 * //"He [Hendrix] had gotten a chance to see Rocki and some other African musicians on the London scene. He found it a pleasure to play rhythms against their polyrhythms. They would totally get outside, into another kind of space that he had seldom been in before. . . . Rocki’s father was a voodoo priest and the chief drummer of a village in Ghana, West Africa. Rocki’s real name was Kwasi Dzidzornu. One of the first things Rocki asked Jimi was where he got that voodoo rhythm from. When Jimi demurred, Rocki went on to explain in his halting English that many of the signature rhythms Jimi played on guitar were very often the same rhythms that his father played in voodoo ceremonies. The way Jimi danced to the rhythms of his playing reminded Rocki of the ceremonial dances to the rhythms his father played to Oxun, the god of thunder and lightning. The ceremony is called voodooshi. As a child in the village, Rocki would carve wooden representatives of the gods. They also represented his ancestors. These were the gods they worshiped. They would jam a lot in Jimi’s house. One time they were jamming and Jimi stopped and asked Rocki point-blank, ‘You communicate with God, do you?’ Rocki said, ‘Yes, I communicate with God’" (David Henderson, ‘Scuse Me While I Kiss the Sky, pages 250, 251)..” //


 * This Henderson was keen to explore Hendrix' Afro leanings and interviewed people like RD and Ram John Holder - black people JH knew in Britain. SO - bit of bio there for ya. I'd include it, but you know - you'll need to withdraw the point because you are right that things need improving, but it's pointless doing it in a hostile atmosphere. I'm trying to work on Sub-Saharan African music traditions - that's how I came to notice. Redheylin (talk) 00:31, 25 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Kaye at least has this, which is a start. Blaine has Blaine, Hal; David Goggin (1990). Hal Blaine and the Wrecking Crew. Emeryville, CA: MixBooks. cited, which seems to pass WP:GNG with flying colours. Other stuff aside, you are right that Dzidzornu has been a member of more than two notable ensembles... but without any reliable sources with more than a passing mention, he still fails WP:GNG. It is a similar case, though admittedly not the same, as Articles for deletion/Ewen Macintosh, where an actor who played a major character in a major show was deleted because there were no sources discussing him the person. On a side note, I applaud you for fighting systematic bias; I've tried to do the same with my Indonesian articles. Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:52, 25 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Aha. Delete per WP:NOTFROMUSA. Right. The man has passed Muso-notability on four counts. I have provided bio information. I have informed you that more is available - significant coverage in reliable sources - and undertaken to add it. I have informed you of the musical significance. That's it. Per the guidelines you keep quoting; " If it is likely that significant coverage in independent sources can be found for a topic, deletion due to lack of notability is inappropriate... For articles of unclear notability, deletion should be a last resort. If an article fails to cite sufficient sources to demonstrate the notability of its subject, look for sources yourself, or ask the article's creator or an expert on the subject for advice on where to look for sources." I shall be happy to oblige. Redheylin (talk) 19:37, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Funny how a Canadian is being accused of being US-centric, but no, that's not anywhere near what I meant. Both Blaine and Kaye pass the General Notability Guidelines because they have sources discussing them in depth, while Dzidzornu does not as of yet. Passing mentions are not enough to prove notability, and so far all you have produced are passing mentions. If you can produce a source that is more than just "Rocky Dijon (born Rocky Dzidzornu) played with..." and the band names, then I would be much obliged. However, as I have said above, passing mentions are not enough to pass the GNG. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:46, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I have produced such a source. I have informed you that "it is likely that significant coverage in independent sources can be found" and therefore that "deletion due to lack of notability is inappropriate". No editor has any right to hold another responsible for the provision of citations to forestall a deletion proposal when he can as easily follow wikipedia policy in a way that leads to the improvement of articles and not to wastage of time. Redheylin (talk) 16:39, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:BURDEN regarding the burden of evidence when it comes to sources, and WP:NRVE, which states "... once an article's notability has been challenged, merely asserting that unspecified sources exist is seldom persuasive, especially if time passes and actual proof does not surface." If you have significant coverage in reliable sources, feel free to source. Otherwise, we should let other editors weigh in. Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 03:29, 28 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep. Influential session drummer, passes WP:MUSICBIO per Redheylin's evidence. I added some sources.  Searching is laborious because he was known by a variety of names and spellings.  (Note, for example, that there are more references under the name "Kwasi Dzidzornu" ).--Arxiloxos (talk) 15:42, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The name "Rocki" might have more hits. The sources in your GSearch mostly use it. Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:51, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * However, the ones I looked at were passing mentions... Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:55, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  — -- Cirt (talk) 17:56, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.