Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rodney Griffin


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Daniel (talk) 03:12, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Rodney Griffin

 * – ( View AfD View log )

I'm tired of people contesting PRODs for non-notable musicians. Contested PROD. Fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:39, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:39, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:50, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep As noted in the edit summary where I contested the WP:PROD, Mr. Griffin meets criterion 6 of WP:MUSICBIO: "is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles". He has been a prominent member of both The Dixie Melody Boys and Greater Vision, both of which are decidedly notable ensembles. He has also written many of the songs performed by Greater Vision and other notable gospel groups. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 19:54, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Notice that MUSICBIO states that a subject may be notable, not that the subject is notable. If he is a prominent member of these quartets, then we should be able to read volumes about the subject. Since none is present and none can be found on the Internet with my WP:BEFORE search, I nominated for PROD and now again for AfD. if no sources can be supported to support the subject's notability, the article must be deleted. And the not at the bottom of the section is similarly clear, "Note that members of notable bands are redirected to the band's article, not given individual articles, unless they have demonstrated individual notability for activity independent of the band, such as solo releases." Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:19, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Further to this point, and to show my BEFORE I did find passing mentions in most articles, such as those linked at http://www.sgmradio.com/tag/rodney-griffin/ > Granted http://www.sgmradio.com/2013/11/25/greater-vision-telling-it-like-it-is/ has a bit of weight to it but most, like http://www.sgmradio.com/2013/01/08/greater-vision-an-increasing-perspective-part-one/ are about the quartet and not Griffin and simply mention him. And then there are unreliable sources like https://kentuckysings.com/2019/10/02/a-talk-with-greater-visions-rodney-griffin/. Now https://www.sgnscoops.com/beyond-the-song-with-rodney-griffin-of-greater-vision/ looked promisng, until you realized it's a WordPress blog that is not even set-up correctly. I found more this: http://www.sgmradio.com/tag/rodney-griffin/ and http://www.absolutelygospel.com/agm/tag/rodney-griffin/ than I did with signfigant coverage. I even found https://www.allmusic.com/artist/rodney-griffin-mn0000834889/credits that offers his credits, but unlike other notable Suthern Gospel acts, there is no biography (like https://www.allmusic.com/artist/bill-gaither-mn0000765068/biography for Bill Gaither). If AllMusic does not have a biography about the subject, I suspect that the subject is not notable. So if you can find significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, please add it to the article so I can say WP:HEY and withdraw my nomination, or show them here because I missed them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:21, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Admittedly, I'm not nearly as active here as I once was, so I'm sure some of the nuances of policy may escape me, but I find it remarkable that Mr. Griffin can be considered non-notable under policy while we de facto keep any one-sentence stub about Joe Blow who had two at-bats for the Red Sox 100 years ago. (And yes, I'm aware of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.) As a singer, he meets one of the criteria set out by WP:MUSICBIO (noted above). As a songwriter, he also meets multiple criteria for notability: "Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition" and "Has written a composition that has won (or in some cases been given a second or other place) in a major music competition not established expressly for newcomers" (he wrote "My Name is Lazarus", which was nominated for a Dove Award and won "Song of the Year" at the Southern Gospel Music Association Awards in 2000. He also received SGMA "Songwriter of the Year" in 2000. His unprecedented streak as Favorite Songwriter in The Singing News' Fan Awards is no doubt being discounted because it is a fan award category, but so is all-star recognition in most sports, and that's used as a measure of notability. Also, The Signing News awards are cited in published works about Southern Gospel music, including the Encyclopedia of American Gospel Music (which cites Griffin's wins in its article about Greater Vision) and the SGMA Hall of Fame and Museum (which notes wins by Griffin's bandmate, Gerald Wolfe, in The Singing News Fan Awards). I concede that Google doesn't readily turn up any in-depth coverage of Griffin individually, but even the bits we can piece together from the sources you've cited make more of an article than we have (and probably ever will have) for a good number of "presumed notable" articles about small towns, sports figures, and rare fauna and flora. Not that I'm arguing for their deletion either, but the lack of symmetry between notability guidelines on these subjects is baffling and, to my mind, harmful to the goals of Wikipedia. So if you want to follow the letter of these inconsistent guidelines, go ahead and delete, I guess. But it seems to me that the spirit of these guidelines shows Mr. Griffin to be many-fold more notable than what is currently reflected in the readily available sources.
 * If my tone seems a little peeved, well - it is. Maybe it was your intro that "I'm tired of people contesting PRODs for non-notable musicians." Very WP:CIVIL, don't you think? Especially given that it's the first time - to my knowledge - that I've ever committed such a "sin". Can you honestly say this is a better encyclopedia for having omitted Mr. Griffin? Acdixon (talk · contribs) 16:25, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Understandable. It was not only speaking of you. I'm going through some clearly non-notable musicians (who are more notable than this subject) all because they were members of a notable band and one editor removed the PRODs, and that editor has not come to see the overwhelming support for deletion in the AfDs. Sorry if you felt singled-out. I have struck the comment, although it is clearly on-record. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:18, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete not "reasonably prominent" that means we would find coverage about him specifically which is lacking.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:48, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep as he does have a number of notable awards / nominations and some significant coveage such as here, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 00:21, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 02:05, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep As per references provided above, Griffin has won awards as a songwriter.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 13:54, 3 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.