Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rol Naath


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__ without prejudice against renomination in a month, if still needed once the page title issue has been straightened out. Two administrative notes:
 * Moving a page during its AfD is disruptive not just for the closing admin, but also for participants, especially when the page title is a contentious issue. Unless the title itself violates policy, the move can wait until the AfD is closed.
 * If you relist an AfD, you are assumed to be--and stay--uninvolved. Owen&times; &#9742;  17:06, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Rol Naath

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

I can find no reliable sources which refer to the place or term "Rol Naath". It may need to be renamed, e.g. Nuer Nation, but is it a nation? The sources included in the article do not seem to mention Rol Naath, but I do not have full access to the offline soures. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:55, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Sudan.  WC  Quidditch   ☎   ✎  19:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi @MSGJ Rol Naath is the Nuer people's home in South Sudan just like Igboland, Yorubaland in Nigeria to name a few. Nuer Nation is an English translation of what the name means. To your question "Is it a nation?", According to the dictionary, a Nation is a body of people having a common descent, history, culture, or language but without a separate or politically independent territory. It doesn't necessarily mean an independent country. Sovereignty is a different thing.
 * Rol Naath is part of South Sudan. South Sudan is comprised of 64 different ethnic groups and each of these groups has its own land with its name. You can't just nominate an article for deletion just because you don't know what the title means and even after reading through the article. This Nuer people are one of the most studied people in Africa by anthropologists. Please read The Nuer, The Nuer conquest, The Nuer religion, The Nuer Nation, Bok in Yel, Wut Naath, few of many reliable sources that back up this article.
 * To address your concern about renaming the article, according to Article titles, The title must indicates what the article is about and distinguishes it from other articles. Rol Naath is what the article is about, the land of Nuer People within South Sudan and some part of Ethiopia. The title should not be the translation of what the article is about. The translations in both Arabic and English are already within the article. Gatwech Gai (talk) 22:31, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There are multiple sources around Igboland and Yorubaland in Nigeria but this article looks like a fringe claim to bolster an ethnic group land claims. If you look to the map in this article and compare it to the on in Nuer people, that becomes clear as you look to the land in the west of South Sudan.
 * From your work at Nuer massacre, I really think you have an axe to grind and you are using self published books and primary sources, synthetic arguments, and editorialising. FuzzyMagma (talk) 07:30, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You know its surprising to me to hear what a lot people think about Africans. I guess i understand now why people rarely find stuff about Africa on Wikipedia "a fringe claim to bolster an ethnic group land claim'? really? this land existed even way before the European colonization and you are making it look like Nuer are some kind of European who are trying to colonize some other ethnic groups?
 * there is clear traditional land borders between each ethnic groups in South Sudan and even though the country is not stable currently, its not because of land and its not because some ethnic groups want out.
 * Take a good look again on the maps in this article and the one in the Nuer people, do not let the grey lines confuse you, Dinka written is there on their land and Nuer is written on the portion of their land.
 * Leave the Nuer massacre work to its talk page. This is about the land. I checked too many articles and almost all of them are build up on combination of sources from books and others and they are perfectly fine. Gatwech Gai (talk) 09:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Per Article titles, this is clearly at the wrong title. It's also difficult to determine whether the topic is actually notable or whether it's WP:SYNTH or a WP:POVFORK, as none of the scholarly searches I can actually access which contain the phrase "Nuer nation" discuss anything the article talks about, and the sources are off-line. SportingFlyer  T · C  06:45, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Well per Article titles, its clearly noted that the title be about the article which the Rol Naath is. How come you can't find scholarly research about the Nuer and their land when they are the most studied ethnic group in Africa? E.E. Evan Pritchards in 1940 went to Nuer land on British government order to study the Nuer, he published The Nuer Nuer Religion, which pretty much cover every aspect of Nuer people's lives. These books ended up being taught in various universities in England and United State.
 * There are other books that specifically talk about Rol Naath as well and you may as well take a good look The Nuer State: Rol Naath, The History of Nuer Nation 5000 BCE to 1943, The Uniques Background of the Nuer Nation.
 * Notes: there are many sources about the Nuer people's land out there but most of them are not for free. Any one here who think Rol Naath be deleted might first need to sacrifice some money to acquire these sources before you claim that no scholarly sources available. Gatwech Gai (talk) 05:32, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Even considering that it is sometimes rendered "Rol Nath", the sources you give are clearly self-published. All of them, including "The History of Nuer Nation 5000 Bce to 1943" looks like a screed to get Nuer people to take some sort of political action, which in Africa usually leads to ethnic cleansing. Moreover, the 5000 BCE is laughable and evidence of uncorrectable bias. Abductive  (reasoning) 06:05, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I see, your point of view on this topic is leading you to difference issues. If you think Nuer land being on Wikipedia is getting them take some sort of political action, did the Igbo and Yoruba people demand political action since their lands were published on Wikipedia? Was the Nuer massacre perpetrated because of their land?
 * let this be about the topic in question and not making it about what you think may happen. keep that to yourself. Gatwech Gai (talk) 08:54, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No, Wikipedia is not someplace to "keep it to myself". You are a keyboard warrior who very likely is one of the people who wrote/posted those unreliable sources. Abductive  (reasoning) 23:12, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I performed scholarly research and book searches for both "Rol Naath" and "Nuer Nation" (and now "Rol Nath.") No hits for Rol Naath and Rol Nath, and "Nuer Nation" brought up 37 sources, but nothing which closely matches the topic of this article, which is about a geographic area. SportingFlyer  T · C  07:26, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete There's definitely parts of this article which could be added or merged to other articles on the Nuer people, but I'm not seeing clear GNG-qualifying sources which suggest notability for the geographic or cultural region, making this WP:SYNTH. SportingFlyer  T · C  07:28, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * "not seeing clear GNG-qualifying sources which suggest notability for the geographic or cultural region"? the 1955-56 map made by British Condominium rule in Sudan is in there and the geographical border between Dinka land and the Nuer land is very clear.
 * So you really think Nuer people do not have cultural region? why not check Sudan open archive (or may be you will have trouble finding source in there) if the sources that i have provided are not enough for you, seems like each one here is trying to justify his/her POV of why they want this article to be deleted but refused to acknowledge the wonderful work E.E Evan Pritchards on Nuer people.
 * Nuer people is unreadable by the way, one of the Nuer fellow called me yesterday to help improve the article but it look like the African input about themselves are not welcomed here but non-African input about Africa are being welcomed with open armed.
 * I still think this article about Nuer people's land should not be deleted. Gatwech Gai (talk) 09:29, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I am not suggesting otherwise - I am suggesting this particular article, as written, is problematic. I did find some accessible writings by Evans-Pritchard, and he calls the area "Nuerland" so I did a search on "Nuerland" which brings up far more sources, many of which are reliable, and I think it would be possible to write an article at that title. SportingFlyer  T · C  16:20, 8 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete comment: This article looks like a fringe claim (maybe totally a hoax too) to bolster an ethnic group's land claims. If you look to the map in this article and compare it to the on in Nuer people, that becomes clear as you look to the land in the west of South Sudan. See this video that comes as the top of the list when searching for the article title which exactly talk about ethnic separation.
 * From this editor work at Nuer massacre, I really think they have an axe to grind and they are using self published books and primary sources, synthetic arguments, and editorialising to do that. This editor has refused to listen and accused everyone who is pointing to the problems with the way they operate, as "working for the genocidal government of South Sudan?", or some kind of conspiracy and has been warned for it but continued with the same behaviour when challenged. You can also look no further than the discussion above.
 * editors can choose to merge it to the Nuer people article but please be careful to weed out what is opinion written as fact (which can be fixed) and what is just totally fabricated.
 * As for now, Gatwech Gai has responded to all comments, almost engaging in some serious WP:BLUD FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:14, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Before you accuses me of all of that, if you can use whatever video you find on Youtube to justify the deletion of the article on Wikipedia, did you use the Puntland declaration of their own autonomy region from the rest of Somalia to delete their article on Wikipedia? or Did anyone here use the need for Igbo independent state as a reason to delete Igboland from Wikipedia?
 * Random talks on Youtube do not justify an article deletion from Wikipedia. Anyone can make videos on Youtube just to generate some viewers and get paid at the end of the day. There is never separation happening in South Sudan. Two of the five vice presidents of South Sudan are both Nuer.
 * Again, the Rol Naath article shouldn't be deleted on Wikipedia. Gatwech Gai (talk) 14:02, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Malinaccier ( talk ) 01:22, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - Nuerland is Nuer people's traditional homeland. It is located in south Sudan and some part of Western Ethiopia. Nuer people call themselve Naath and their country Rol Naath. For additional reading concerning Nuerland, please see: NuerLand and its location, Nuer people distribution, The Nuer by E.E. Pritchards, The Nuer description, The Nuer:description, The Nuer people of South Sudan, Nuer custom and folklore and Sudan Open Archive. Gatwech Gai (talk)
 * Comment: article has been moved to Nuerland &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:22, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The flag is for “The Nuer State” and “Röl Nath” which are different from Nuerland. I think I will spend time fixing this article since it’s now about Nuerland and not a recent ethnic claim of land that came to prominence after the South Sudanese Civil War FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:50, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * User:Liz has moved it back with edit summary "Please do not move a page that is a subject of an AFD, it makes closure very complicated". This seems bureaucratic in the extreme, when everyone seems to agree it was at the wrong title &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:44, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * MSGJ, it's not bureaucratic, we use XFDcloser to close discussions and the tool can't process when the name of the AFD is different than the new name of an article. Like I said, it complicates relisting and discussion closure, that's all. Close dozens of AFDs and you'll see for yourself. Liz Read! Talk! 05:37, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Bureaucratic: excessively complicated administrative procedure ... yep, that sounds correct &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Weak keep I admit that it's a bit confusing with name change so I'm not exactly clear on what the goal is here. I see three books by University presses on the Nuer - which I don't have to hand but I am going to assume that they would be suitable sources for an article on this place. However, there is much in this article that is sourced to original sources or at least institutional sources that may not meet the standard of independence. That weakens the notability claim so adding more reliable sources is needed. Lamona (talk) 22:37, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Are the sources about Nuerland (or some other placename) or are they are about the Nuer people? Would be great to have these references if you can dig them out &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:13, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I see:
 * Evans-Pritchard, E.E. (2016) [1940]. NUER: a description of the modes of livelihood and political institutions of a nilotic people ... (classic reprint). Forgotten Books. ISBN 978-1-33380-312-4. OCLC 980437822
 * Shandy, Dianna J. (2006). Nuer-American Passages: Globalizing Sudanese Migration. Gainesville, Florida: U of Florida.
 * Kelly, Raymond Case (1985). The Nuer Conquest: The Structure and Development of an Expansionist System. University of Michigan Press. ISBN 0472080563.
 * I don't have access to most of them but they are entire books so I am assuming that there will be some mention of the geographical area and its history in relation to the people. I tried Open Library and there is a borrowable copy of the Evans-Pritchard book which has maps showing which groups occupy which land. I'm just going on faith, I admit. I would not object if some of this were included in the Nuer people article rather than a separate article, but I think that would mean eliminating the detail about the counties. Lamona (talk) 15:43, 18 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep, but needs some serious copy editing. xq 22:47, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Weak keep. I did some digging and found: Howell, P. A Manual of Nuer Law. (1954).  The term Nuerland shows up 55 times and there is a good 7-page section describing the Nuerland.  There were a few other academic books that showed up with a search of "Nuerland," but I couldn't get access to them.  I think overall I am in favor of keeping this article.  Malinaccier  ( talk ) 01:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment on naming. The above source actually clears up some of the naming confusion, which is not super relevant to the AFD but is probably of interest for renaming: "If one meets an Englishman in Germany and asks him where his home is, he may reply that it is England. If one meets the same man in London and asks him the same question, he will tell one that his home is in Oxfordshire, whereas if one meets him in that county, he will tell one the name of the town or village in which he lives. If questioned in his town or village he will mention his particular street, and if questioned in his street he will indicate his house. So it is with the Nuer. A Nuer met outside Nuerland says that his home is  cieng Nath, Nuerland. He may also refer to his tribal country as his  cieng, though the more usual expression for this is  rol. If one asks him in his tribe what is his  cieng, he will name his village or tribal section according to the context."  Malinaccier  ( talk ) 01:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.