Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Romanian local barons


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Cirt (talk) 00:38, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Romanian local barons

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This is largely a recreation of Local Baron, but an admin thought that it should not have been deleted in the first place (no WP:DRV though). My original concerns remain largely the same: Even though this term has been used in Romanian politics for some years, I couldn't find a reliable source to define it. Now, the term baron (without "local") is defined in a 2007 Romanian slang dictionary to mean "member of the Social-Democrat Party that autocratically dominates the economical or political life of a city or county". But many journalists use it outside this context, so big YMMV if an article can be written without WP:SYNT at this time. I should add that even the Romanian Wikipedia doesn't have an entry on this topic (it should be at ro:Baron local)

This article is a libel magnet too. It's not too hard to find one Romanian editorialist or another call one politician or another "local baron", but as far as I can tell what they mean by that varies from one writer to another... Romanian politicians also call each other "lying pigs" and similar epithets. Are we going to have an article on lying pigs too, and list everyone that's been called that in it? I see that Obama has been called that too. LOL.

Parenthetical remark now that the new article has been focused solely on Romania: After looking through some sources are not about Romania, it's clear that "local baron" is a juxtaposition of words common in English and used in many contexts outside Romanian politics. E.g. it's used to refer to mayors in Western Europe or Asia. The contemporary Romanian application does not appear unusual, not even in its metaphoric aspect. Pcap ping  19:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

That's why I used 'Romanian local baron', instead of just 'local baron'. And it's more than a mass media invention, it's an accurate description of the side effects of the postcommunist transition in Romania and probably other Eastern European countries. So the Romanian local baron is quite different from the Nigerian local baron. And you have to contend that the word 'baron' is not used in its original meaning, since noble titles have long ago dissapeared from Romania. I was going to include a small theoretical framework, mainly Szeleny's 'Capitalism without Capitalists' to explain the emergence of the new power elite. And yes, it can be a libel magnet as long as it only talks about PSD barons or PD-L barons, but with concrete examples it can gain a decent shape. Hitler may not have considered himself a dictator, but that doesn't mean he wasn't one. I know that the few I have written doesn't qualify as an encyclopedia article, so maybe I'll try to elaborate before posting it again. But I think there must be such an article for the foreign crowd. I mean, there are articles for 'jumping the shark', 'fat cat', 'revolving door' and other media jargon, and they were very useful to me. So if a foreigner hears of this term he may want to learn more. That's why the article needs to be a synthesis of the main characteristics of the local baron (the ideal type), and the main antidemocratic actions one is alleged to take, without insisting on the names. Currently the term appears on a number of individual political figures' Wikipedia pages (Liviu Dragnea, Relu Fenechiu), so it could be linked. (Nomoteticus) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomoteticus (talk • contribs) 20:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Insofar we don't have much if any sources that discuss the term, as opposed to just fling it at political opponents. Hence the problems with this article. Since you are sociology student, I'd like to point out that Wikipedia is not a venue for publishing original research. We already have articles on nouveau riche and the like. Connecting the dots as you did above to advance a (sociological) theory is generally forbidden, unless some reliable source does it, and we just cite it. Pcap ping  20:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Probably the best comparison here is Fat cat (term). That article is mostly about the (very long) history of the term, which is itself discussed in secondary sources, and not just a compilation of people having been called "fat cat" at one point or another. In fact, there's almost none of that kind of info in the 'fat cat' article. Unfortunately in the 'Romanian local barons' article we have an unsourced paragraph on the origins and meaning of the term, and a sourced list of recent uses. Rather non-encyclopedic. Pcap ping  20:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * This article is more like the (now deleted) article on curmudgeon, which had the definition of the term followed by a list of people called that. The definition of "Romanian local baron" is itself somewhat hard to pin down, but assuming you could do that, Wiktionary is a more appropriate place. Pcap ping  21:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete per the very sensible arguments in the nomination.Anonimu (talk) 22:23, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions.  -- Pcap  ping  20:13, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions.  -- Pcap  ping  20:13, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete without coverage in reliable sources, it just doesn't meet notability guidelines. RadioFan (talk) 13:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete primarily per eternal BLP concerns. Even with no refs to individuals, the article has a tinge of SYNTH and NPOV that I consider problematic.  Exemplary AfD rationale, reasoned, in-depth, perspective ...  Power.corrupts (talk) 14:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.