Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ronald Crawford (Scottish knight)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   redirect to Barns of Ayr. Missvain (talk) 05:30, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Ronald Crawford (Scottish knight)

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Contested prod, it is not clear that this person is even a historical figure, the article is based on very dated or problematic sources, the Barns of Ayr incident is known to be unhistorical. PatGallacher (talk) 23:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Scotland-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 01:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:56, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Keep/merge The subject appears in numerous sources. Whether he is historical, mythical, apocryphal or whatever seems quite irrelevant to the question of notability. Andrew D. (talk) 12:55, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Where are these numerous sources? I'm not strongly opposed to reducing this to a redirect to Barns of Ayr, but as an encyclopedia we have some responsibility to distinguish between historical, legendary and fictional characters. PatGallacher (talk) 17:10, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * There's Encyclopædia Britannica, for example. Now, we must ask PatGallacher for his sources.  PatGallacher nominated the related article of Barns of Ayr for deletion too and the result of that recent discussion was Keep.  PatGallacher then edited that article to push their POV and when this material was challenged, they just edit-warred it back without providing any source.  PatGallacher's behaviour is contrary to core policy so they should please see WP:SAUCE. Andrew D. (talk) 08:54, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I take the point, although it's difficult to prove a negative. "Freedom's Sword", Peter Traquair's serious account, makes no mention of Ronald Crawford or the Barns of Ayr incident, although it does mention his son briefly. I will consult the Britannica and other works about Wallace and his time. PatGallacher (talk) 16:27, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't know about Ronald/Reginald, but Pat's on target about about the 'Barns of Ayr' and dated sources in general. I wouldn't consider a century-old article in Encyclopædia Britannica an acceptable source for medieval history, especially considering the amount of good books on Scottish history out there. Felicity Riddy's chapter Unmapping the Territory: Blind Hary's Wallace, in Edward Cowan's The Wallace Book (2007, ISBN 978-0-85976-652-4), is a scholarly discussion on Blind Hary's account of Wallace. She notes the 'Barns of Ayr' a couple times saying "In general, Wallace’s activities were greatly elaborated by Hary, who also inserted additional battles (such as that at Biggar) for his hero to win, or English atrocities (such as the Barns of Ayr episode) for Wallace to revenge." and "Unfortunately – as is commonly pointed out but insufficiently appreciated – none of Hary’s information can be believed without independent corroboration. His technique was to pack his story with authentic-seeming episodes and names that mostly turn out to be anachronistic plagiarisms from Barbour’s, Wyntoun’s and Bower’s narratives of post-Wallace Anglo-Scottish warfare; the purpose was to give the strongest impression of verisimilitude and reliability – but only in the way that including real events and people in modern thrillers does. Hary’s account of Wallace’s kin cannot, therefore, be accepted uncritically, as has happened so often, especially regarding Elderslie; yet nor can it be automatically dismissed. Consider, for instance, Sir Reginald Crawford. He is not mentioned by Gesta Annalia II, Wyntoun or Bower, but occurs in Barbour’s Bruce as being hanged in a barn at Ayr – which gave Hary a famous but fictitious story. Barbour, however, did not call Crawford sheriff of Ayr, so Hary obtained that, correct, detail elsewhere – probably from Crawford’s heirs, the Campbells of Loudon. But does that mean Hary was correct about Crawford’s relationship with Wallace? Perhaps – but equally possibly he invented the relationship to flatter the Campbells." The People of Medieval Scotland: 1093–1314 website lists a couple Crawford sheriffs who appear in contemporary sources. Maybe one of these men could be the historical Ronald in the article.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 01:15, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that information. I now suggest we merge this article with Barns of Ayr, and attempt to deal with the historicity or otherwise of these matters in that article.  Just checked Barbour, he does briefly mention a Crawford hanged in a barn in Ayr, but the context suggests this occurred in 1306. PatGallacher (talk) 01:54, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
 * The exact quote in a modern translation is "Sir Ranald of Crauford also, and Sir Bryce the Blair, were hanged in a barn at Ayr". Rather a lot has been erected on this slender foundation.  This occurs in book 4 in between mentions of the fate of Christopher Seton and the queen and Bruce's daughter Marjorie, implying a 1306 context. PatGallacher (talk) 02:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 00:11, 3 February 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —Tom Morris (talk) 19:31, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Barns of Ayr Notability of Crawford seems to be only that he was a purported player in this legendary history. Simonm223 (talk) 21:32, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree, I have come across a recently published book about Robert the Bruce which mentions his supposed son Reginald (a minor but clearly historical figure) being made Sheriff of Ayr in 1296, unlikely if his father was still alive. PatGallacher (talk) 23:45, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Barns of Ayr Although it would not matter whether he is historical or mythical, it does matter that he is an unknown probable apochcryphal, without adequate sources for almost all of the present content. On the broader matter of deleting the Barns, IMO this would be an infelicitous overstep. If someone has time, some handling of the Felicity Riddy information above would nicely upgrade the Barns article. I ported the reference over to there, and placed it inline at a reasonable spot, but didn't port the quote or a rewording. FeatherPluma (talk) 22:21, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.