Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ronald Huth (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Stifle (talk) 10:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Ronald Huth
AfDs for this article: 
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Ronald Huth is NOT a professional footballer yet, fails WP:athlete. He does not plays any professional games Matthew_hk   t  c  19:32, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete per criterion G4 as it has already been deleted via a deletion discussion in the past. – PeeJay 19:59, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. GiantSnowman 20:08, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete G4 - nothing has changed in this player's career since the last deletion. GiantSnowman 20:08, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - I don't think this will qualify under G4, as the current article is a fair bit different to the deleted versions (one prod, one afd). Camw (talk) 00:13, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - seeing as he is not eligible for a speedy, I still feel the article should be deleted as the player fails WP:ATHLETE (as he hasn't played in a fully-pro league or comp yet) as well as WP:GNG (due to a lack of in depth, untrivial sources about him). GiantSnowman 08:41, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment He is not played in this year Italian Cup. Matthew_hk   t  c  20:30, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep When a footballer signs a contract (after completing his way through the youth divisions) he becomes a professional footballer (he is paid to work as that). The fact that he did not yet played in the first team does not deny that he is professional. Despite not playing for his club he was champion with the reserve team and was one of Paraguay's top players in the 2009 South American Youth Championship (where they came 2nd, a historical achievement for the country's football). Anyway I saved the article in a notepad so that if it is deleted now I could re-create it if and when he becomes relevant. (I'm not a native English speaker so I apologize for any linguistic roughness). Greets. --Fache (talk) 20:38, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep G4 doesn't apply here & I have already declined that. The deleted article has a 1 sentence unsourced stub and the current article has made a good faith attempt to fix that.  The subject of this article passes the GNG and so is notable even if he hasn't yet played a fully pro game.  A news search indicates dozens of sources about this player, including several Spanish language sources specifically about him (as opposed to a game he played in.)  --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:24, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete fails WP:ATHLETE, recreate if/when he plays a competitive football game. --Angelo (talk) 07:38, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete I doubt he's even the most notable person in his household. Spiderone (talk) 08:42, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete At present fails WP:ATHLETE until he plays for current club Steve-Ho (talk) 12:50, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: as usual for these types of article all the !votes are focusing on him (apparently) failing ATHLETE. As such, I would like to remind everyone that failing ATHLETE is not a reason for exlusion; he must also fail the GNG to be excluded which he does not. --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:24, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd be interested to for you to tell me how he passes WP:GNG, which states someone has to receive "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." Of the three sources on the page, one is a player profile (not significant), one if a piece about him signing for Liverpool (which is not significant either, as WP:NTEMP states that "routine news coverage of such things as announcements, sports, and tabloid journalism are not sufficient basis for a topic to have its own standalone article" (my emphasis)), while the third is about him leaving Liverpool on loan, and is published by Liverpool, so it certainly isn't independent, and its significance is up for debate! GiantSnowman 14:32, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes I am well aware of your belief that any coverage related to his sports accomplishments can't be considered significant. It is pointless for me to try and reply to this, because every article about him playing sports will be deemed insignificant because it is about sports.  This basically means that no athlete can ever be notable (pro or amateur) because of course all coverage about them is related to their sporting accomplishments.  If we didn't have the ATH "exemption" we'd have almost zero athletes on Wikipedia using this definition of "significant coverage". --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:09, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There just isn't enough independent coverage and it's all centred around one event which isn't even hugely significant. Spiderone (talk) 16:15, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thaddeus, I'm not someone who thinks that any coverage related to sports is insignificant AT ALL. However, the sources provided for this player are highly insignificant, as I have shown. GiantSnowman 16:29, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not understand why the player's profile is not relevant. The first source is a profile written by a prestigious football webpage (goal.com) about him after being considered one of the best players in the South American Youth Championship. Another source  is a Paraguayan web that talks abouth his achievement as reserve champion with Liverpool. I don't understand how that could be irrelevant also. Finally the Liverpool source could be easily changed with an independent one which states his transfer to Vicenza. --Fache (talk) 16:48, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment He has played professional football games, both for Paraguay U-20 and Liverpool reserves. I mean he received payment for each and every one of those games, which by definition makes him a professional athlete. So please do not insist with the fact that he has not competed professionally yet. In another order of business, I don't know if it is a good argument but he has 11.300 + 28.800 hits in google. --Fache (talk) 16:36, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Huth being a professional is not in question. However, he has not competed at a "fully professional" level (my emphasis), as WP:ATHLETE dictates. GiantSnowman 16:52, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry for not understanding, perhaps I'm a little slow. Is there a degree of professionality? when you play a game and you are paid for that you have competed on a fully professional level. --Fache (talk) 16:57, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Fully professional" means that every single player competing in a legue or competition is a full-time professional. GiantSnowman 17:01, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well every single player in the South American Youth Championship are full-time professional (though young) footballers (most of them already have an article in Wikipedia). You can found all of them here. I can't say the same for the reserve teams league as I am not well informed. --Fache (talk) 17:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Even though the players in an international youth tournament may very well be professional past consensus is that appearances at youth level do not confer notability. GiantSnowman 17:08, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I'm really confused. The problem at first was that he had not competed professionally (which is an objective standard that has been proved that Huth satisfies). Now the problem is that the games he has played are not notable enough (which is an entirely subjective standard). Needless to say I believe we should try to avoid the subjective standard and use the objective one. --Fache (talk) 17:18, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Passes WP:BIO per this Google News Archive search provided by ThaddeusB. Ronald Huth passes WP:GNG/WP:BIO; see these two articles from Diario ABC Color, as well as this article from Goal.com. All three of these articles provide significant coverage of this individual. Whether or not Ronald Huth passes WP:ATHLETE is irrelevant to whether this article should be kept; since he passes WP:BIO, this article should remain on Wikipedia. Cunard (talk) 17:10, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * A quick look through the Google News Archive simply consists of match reports and other trivial news pieces, which as mentioned before doesn't count as "significant" per WP:NTEMP. GiantSnowman 17:13, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What king of coverage would you consider "significant"? --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:21, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Things more than just "John Doe moved from Wikipedia FC to Wikipedia United" or "John Doe played a game for the reserve team of Wikipedia United." GiantSnowman 17:23, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So which category would the interview & in depth profile linked to by Cunard fall into? --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:04, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not into any of those. The interview could perhaps be significant enough, but the profile not so. Many reliable websites produce profiles for a horde of non-notable players - admittedly in less detail than Huth's Goal profile - and I wouldn't use them to prove notability for players. GiantSnowman 18:10, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Certain a stats only or basic info only profile wouldn't confer notability, but I personally think an in depth one should. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this! :) GiantSnowman 18:19, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: The Spanish Wikipedia's article appears to be fairly extensive (albeit unreferenced) and might help in expanding this article if anyone is so interested. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've already checked, it is a copyright violation from the Goal.com profile. --Fache (talk) 18:42, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That is more than likely why "might help in expanding this article" was mentioned. Plug in some keywords from the article and you will find coverage.
 * Every important fact mentioned in the Goal.com profile has already been added, thats why the Spanish Wikipedia article has no practical use. --Fache (talk) 17:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete but keep an eye out Might meet coverage guidelines but not WP:ATHLETE. This article will be a great base to use when (not a crystal ball but assuming) the player does play at a higher level. Thanks to Pitufin16 for creating it and we'll hopefully see this article again as the player's career progresses.Cptnono (talk) 13:59, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.