Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Royal Order of the Intare


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Kigeli V of Rwanda. Consensus not to have a separate article. What if anything to merge from history to the ex-king's article is a matter for further editorial discussion.  Sandstein  06:37, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Royal Order of the Intare

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This article has been proposed for deletion due to several fatal issues. There is no reliable primary source cited to support the claim that such an order even exists, nor could I find one after searching. The only source the article provides is for a different Order entirely -- the Royal Order of the Lion of Rwanda -- but even that citation is to a source that almost no one has access to. Without any excerpt provided from that source, it may well not be a valid source at all. There is no evidence that such a claimed "order" is notable, even if it exists. There are no primary sources cited for the claimed "notable members" of this "order", so there's no reason to believe that they actually are members, but some of those listed are notorious collectors of self-styled orders, which further discredits the notion that this "order" is legitimate. The article claims that the fons honorum of the order is "King Kigeli V of Rwanda", but Kigeli was king for only 18 months and was deposed in 1961, so he hasn't been king for more than a half-century. I presume that, having lived in the US for more than 20 years and being on government assistance, Kigeli is an American citizen and as such he would be are barred from being "king" of anywhere, as well as being barred from granting memberships in "royal orders". The article claims "Since 3 January 1998, King Kigeli V of Rwanda has affirmed right to bestow the order..." What prevented Kigeli from bestowing membership in the Order between 1961 and 1998? An article in The Economist states "King Kigeli V Ndahindurwa of Rwanda lost his throne in 1961. He now lives in social housing in Oakton, Virginia, surviving on handouts from well-wishers. But he has a business sideline, too. The orders and titles of nobility he issues do not have anything as plebeian as a price tag. But the recipients (70-odd so far) are 'asked for donations', according to his 'secretary-general', Alex Montague, a financial adviser in Miami. Cash payments usually range from $1,000 to $8,000..." http://www.economist.com/news/international/21586844-people-still-yearn-aristocratic-titles-some-buy-them-honours-and-offers. Another article in The Washingtonian about Kigeli states "The only people with real power or money Kigeli sees these days are those seeking knighthoods. In 1998, he revived the Order of the Lion, first granted by his late half-brother, King Mutara. More recently, Kigeli introduced a series of new orders—of the drum, the crown, and the crested crane, all icons in the royal coat of arms—when it became clear they might appeal to benefactors. 'We've seen donations anywhere from $1,000 to $8,000, but the average is $3,000 to $5,000,' says Alex Montague, a financial adviser in Miami who processes the requests as the king’s current secretary-general." http://www.washingtonian.com/articles/people/a-king-with-no-country/index.php Clearly, this is a straightforward cash-for-honors business run by an American citizen.  In short: this article is nothing more than an attempt at self-promotion by a bogus "order", entirely lacking in legitimate sources. I posted this information a year ago, challenging its editors to address the problems cited above. Not one has responded. I believe it fits all of the requirements for deletion. Thank you. Bricology (talk) 18:30, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. The translation of 'Intare' is 'lion'. After reading up on this, I believe they are the same order; translated that would make sense, and people awarded the order use the terms interchangeably . The source you list above states "In 1998, he revived the Order of the Lion, first granted by his late half-brother, King Mutara. More recently, Kigeli introduced a series of new orders—of the drum, the crown, and the crested crane, all icons in the royal coat of arms—when it became clear they might appeal to benefactors." It does not mention that he introduced new orders having to do with lions or intare, leading me to believe it is a continuation of the first order. If Kigeli is selling the orders, that is a completely different issue, as is his being deposed and the legitimacy of the order. The fact that it is resurrected by a Rwandan King and started by a Rwandan King gives it a 'keep' in my book. --Cagepanes (talk) 07:47, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Cagepanes wrote "After reading up on this, I believe they are the same order; translated that would make sense, and people awarded the order use the terms interchangeably" Exactly *where* did you "read up on this"?  We need to see reliable second-party sources, as WP requires.  No, "ManorialGuild.com" does not qualify as one.  And it's telling that the link you provided is to precisely the sort of fake title-collector that "The Royal Order of Intarare" is marketed to: one Cheong Ming Lam -- who (according to your link), for having been born in China and being ethnically Chinese, and now being a British citizen, also purchased "the noble title of Datu Sadja from HM Muedzul-Lail Tan Kiram, the 35th Sultan of Sulu and Sabah (North Borneo)" and "Honorary Aide-De-Camp or Kentucky Colonel from the Governor of Kentucky", was "commissioned as an Honorary Admiral in the Texas Navy awarded by the Governor of the State of Texas", "Knight Grand Cross of Justice of the Royal Confraternity of Sao Teotonio, A Knight Commander of the Royal Order of Saint Michael of the Wing, A Companion of the Royal and Hashemite Order of the Pearl of Sulu, A Commander of the Imperial Order of the Dragon of Annam, and a Companion of the Military and Hospitaller Order of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem", and purchased the fake title "Lord of the Manor of Pinner, Essex".  Is this really a source that you think is going to lend legitimacy to the article in question?  More to the point: the article does not provide sources to support its claims.  You continued "If Kigeli is selling the orders, that is a completely different issue, as is his being deposed and the legitimacy of the order. The fact that it is resurrected by a Rwandan King and started by a Rwandan King gives it a 'keep' in my book."  You seem to be confused.  It wasn't "resurrected by a Rwandan King", since Kigeli has not been king of anything since 1961, nor can he be a king of anything, so long as he remains a US citizen.  Laws in the US prohibit any US citizen from being a monarch or having a nobiliary title, or granting nobiliary titles.  And no, he cannot "resurrect" something that *may* have been started by his brother a half-century ago, 37 years after he was deposed and left the kingdom he may have once ruled.  That just ain't the way it works.  A "continuation" must be unbroken.  It's as absurd as claiming that the the last Emperor of China could move to the US and, 50 years after he was deposed, start selling Chinese imperial titles.  I've provided two solid second-party sources that both say that this is a transparent cash-for-honors scheme.  Neither you nor anyone else has provided any legitimate sources which refute that.  Since WP isn't a platform for shysters to advertise their fake titles, the article needs to go. Bricology (talk) 06:37, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you seem to be confused. You are going into the legitimacy of whether a deposed ruled can grant titles. That is a completely separate issue. The fact is the order exists, and there are reliable sources to cover it: The Washington Post, the Journal of the Canadian Institute of Marketing, and possibly Arizona GOP. You also state it "may" have been started by his brother. It was, so I don't know where your question is coming from? You also state Kigeli "hay" have ruled, which is also confusing, since he did, as he was King. You're going down rabbit holes for issues that are separate from the fact that this is an order that exists from a (now deposed) King, and there are reliable sources to prove it. --Cagepanes (talk) 15:22, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Cagepanes wrote "You are going into the legitimacy of whether a deposed ruled can grant titles. That is a completely separate issue." It's in no way "a completely separate issue"; it is one of a number of fatal issues that this article has.  The onus is on the claimant (i.e., the WP editor who posted this article) to support their claim.  If someone claimed that the Queen had the legal prerogative to bestow The Order of the Garter, it would be straightforward to prove that she does.  If someone claimed that an American citizen had the legal prerogative to bestow The Royal Order of the Intare, that should be able to be proved as well.  Has it been proved?  Of course not.  Furthermore, you claimed that "The Royal Order of the Intare" is the same as "The Royal Order of the Lion", since "intare" means "lion".  That is not only a dangerous assumption to make, it is entirely incorrect.  In fact, the Royal Order of the Lion was established in 1891 by King Leopold while the Congo was a Belgian colony, and it continued to be awarded through 1960, when Belgium lost control of the Congo.  The Royal Order of the Lion is still considered a Belgium royal order, and continues to be administered by the Belgian authorities, although it is no longer awarded http://www.medals.org.uk/belgium/belgium005.htm .  What Washington Post article are you talking about?  I have found no such article.  There is the article in Washingtonian (magazine) (no relation to the Post) that I referenced, which states Kigeli's "...occasional sale of Rwandan knighthoods to jet-set strangers in search of novelty status symbols".  I'm glad you accept that as being evidence that Kigeli is simply selling titles, but don't conflate that article in The Washingtonian with "The Washington Post" providing reliable sourcing.  Can you find even one reliable second-party source to show that King Mutara created or ever conferred this Order?  Nope.  Here's what Guy Stair Sainty, editor of the comprehensive reference book World Orders of Knighthood & Merit wrote on the topic: :::::"If someone wants to suggest that Mwami Mutara III created the Royal 'Order' of the Lion, it must be up to him or her to provide the evidence. At the very least, they ought to offer a convincing argument in favour of it. Absentmindedness, as to when it may have been created, does not help in so doing. Neither do any of the following unanswered questions:
 * Why Mwami Mutara III never wore an 'order' of that description.
 * Why King Kigeri himself did not receive the 'order', nor any other known member of the Royal family.
 * Why nobody can name a single recipient of the 'order' under Mwami Mutara III.
 * Why it was never conferred by King Kigeri himself, while he actually reigned as Mwami in 1959-1961.
 * Why it was never worn by him while Mwami.
 * Why a single contemporary newspaper cutting or reference cannot be produced confirming the existence of the 'order'.
 * Why there are no records of the 'order' in the Belgian colonial archives of the period.
 * Why the Belgians would have even allowed another 'order' with exactly the same name as one of their existing orders, which they regularly conferred in Rwanda.
 * Why would someone clamouring for the independence of his country even base his first 'order' on the colonial order and even use the lion rampant symbol, when his own principal royal symbols are the sacred drums.
 * Why King Kigeri never conferred the 'order' during the 31 years of his residence outside the USA.
 * If someone can offer convincing answers to these questions, I would be more than happy to take a different view. However, in their absence, the conclusion to all this is relatively simple. This 'Royal souvenir' has the footprints of the American gong-hunting 'fraternity' all over it." (source: newsgroup alt.talk.royalty)
 * I apologize if my use of the word "may" was confusing. I used it not to introduce doubt, but conditionally (such as if I said "...while he may have been king at the time, he did not confer...")  I do not doubt that Kigeli was once the King of Rwanda. Bricology (talk) 20:53, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 1. First of all, the King's name is Kigeli, not Kigeri. The fact that you're not even spelling his name right would lead one to believe you don't know what you are researching.
 * 2. I meant the Washington Post because that's what I wrote. If you read the rest of the source, you'll see 'Post' instead of 'Magazine'. The original article is referenced and quoted here and here. I don't have access to their archives, so I can't provide a URL. Not being able to find a URL on a reference is quite common, actually.
 * 3. I have no idea why you're arguing about him holding a royal station as well as living in America. There are lots of deposed/exiled royals in the US. Here and here are articles on half a dozen of them.
 * The fact is, this is an order from a notable person (ie: Kigeli V of Rwanda), conferred on notable people (ie: Edward von Kloberg III), covered by reliable sources (ie: The Washington Post). Most of what you're challenging isn't apropos to this article. --Cagepanes (talk) 02:06, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Cagepanes wrote "First of all, the King's name is Kigeli, not Kigeri. The fact that you're not even spelling his name right would lead one to believe you don't know what you are researching." No, "first of all", I didn't write his name "Kigeri" ; if you look up-thread you'll see that I have always spelled it "Kigeli".  I was quoting Guy Stair Sainty.  That's why I wrote "Here's what Guy Stair Sainty, editor of the comprehensive reference book World Orders of Knighthood & Merit wrote on the topic", followed with opening quotation marks, and Sainty's quote, in italics. I don't know how you missed that, but before accusing me of ignorance, it would be a good idea to make sure that I'm actually ignorant.  Furthermore, as one David Pritchard pointed out to Mr. Sainty at the source I referenced, "By the way, the Rwandans have made it clear to me that the king's name is Kigeli with a 'l' rather than a 'r'. It would seem that his name has been spelled both ways over the past fifty years, perhaps the spelling with the 'r' is prefered in the French language and that with the 'l' is prefered in the Kinyarwanda language." (emphasis added)  It's worth noting that French was the official administrative language in the Belgian Congo from 1885 through 1960, and that before the Belgians arrived, the indigenous peoples had no written language, so claiming that Kigeli spelled his name with an "L" is sophistry since it's unlikely he spelled it at all .  Perhaps he preferred it being pronounced with the "L" sound, and that's the way he's subsequently spelled it.  You originally wrote "The fact is the order exists, and there are reliable sources to cover it: The Washington Post, the Journal of the Canadian Institute of Marketing, and possibly Arizona GOP", for which you provided two links which quoted the Post.  But that has never been the issue.  No one has claimed that something called "The Royal Order of the Intare" doesn't exist; clearly, it does.  But that does not confer notability, much less legitimacy upon it.  And it's telling that the Post article makes mention of it in the context of a crooked politician receiving it.  Finally, you wrote "I have no idea why you're arguing about him holding a royal station as well as living in America"  Again, reading comprehension is an important thing.  I never said that persons with royal titles couldn't live in America; I said that they couldn't be US citizens, and I'm correct.  Here's what the US Citizenship and Immigration Service states on their website as a prerequisite for anyone becoming a naturalized citizen:
 * C. Renunciation of Title or Order of Nobility​: Any applicant who has any titles of heredity or positions of nobility in any foreign state must renounce the title or the position. The applicant must expressly renounce the title in a public ceremony and USCIS must record the renunciation as part of the proceedings.​ [5] Failure to renounce the title of position shows a lack of attachment to the Constitution.​ In order to renounce a title or position, the applicant must add one of the following phrases to the Oath of Allegiance:​
 * •I further renounce the title of (give title or titles) which I have heretofore held; or ​
 * •I further renounce the order of nobility (give the order of nobility) to which I have heretofore belonged." Citizenship & Naturalization, Part J – Oath of Allegiance .  Consequently, if Kigeli is a US citizen, he can no longer call himself a king, nor can he act as a fons honorum for any royal orders.  Given that he's lived here for 23 years, and for most or all of that time, on public assistance, I think it's likely that he is a citizen. ​Bricology (talk) 22:33, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I still think you would benefit from some research on this. Kigeli was granted asylum in the United States. Where are you seeing he's a US Citizen? --Cagepanes (talk) 00:15, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen proof that he's a US citizen, nor that he isn't. Do you have any sources that confirm or deny either status?  Anyone who has lived in the US for 23 years -- whether or not they arrived as an assylum-seeker -- is likely to have become a citizen by now, since the process takes far shorter time than that.  And anyone who hasn't at least done their best to become a citizen, but has lived off of its citizen-taxpayers (getting food stamps, Section-8 housing, etc.) for all of that time, I would describe as a parasite and say they ought to be deported. Bricology (talk) 23:56, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Have you even read his article, Bricology? It says right in the article he was granted asylum by the US. The source is still live, which takes you to the Time article. Also, no one cares about your personal opinions on an ousted dictator. It's not apropos to any discussion about his article, or the Intare article. --Cagepanes (talk) 00:14, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Cagepanes wrote "It says right in the article he was granted asylum by the US." Yes, I know -- and when was that article written?  Fourteen years ago.  A lot can happen in 14 years.  Are you claiming that people who come to the US as asylum-seekers can't or don't subsequently become citizens?  As I suspect you know, the reality is that of the more than 20,000 people that the US grants asylum to each year, the majority who stay and behave themselves, become citizens.  That process takes about 5 years, so Kigeli could've become a citizen nearly 3 times over, if he wanted to.  I have still found nothing from any source that states whether or not he has become a citizen.  If you have solid information one way or the other, feel free to cite it.  Unless and until you do, you have to admit that his status is unknown .  Kigeli is either a freeloading long-time resident or he's a citizen and thus, barred from using or granting titles, as per the Federal law I cited above. Bricology (talk) 05:38, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I had to laugh at this from Cagepanes: "...this is an order from a notable person...conferred on notable people (ie: Edward von Kloberg III..." Edward Kloberg was barely notable (a whole 875 Google hits!) and even then, only for being a shyster for dictators.  Here's how the Washington Post described him: "He (Kloberg) festooned himself with red sashes and ornate medals, decorations from faded potentates and the minor nations that retained his services. He spoke in a deep, pompous voice. 'Le baron von Kloberg,' one of his office cards read. 'Chairman and Founder, Washington World Group, Limited, International Consultants.'  He was not a baron; he was the son of a successful New York engineer who built bridges and housing projects. From childhood he was fascinated by history and avidly read biographies of important people. He changed his surname from 'Kloberg' decades later, because he thought 'von' sounded more noble." (source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/30/AR2005073001401.html )  In short: Kloberg was EXACTLY the sort of social-climbing fraud that Kigeli and his ilk market their fake orders to. Occam&#39;s Shaver (talk) 02:27, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It's pretty obvious Kloberg was a complete tool. A quick glance at any article about him shows that. Notability doesn't mean someone is notable for positive things. I'm not saying that Kloberg is angelic. I'm saying there are reliable sources to say that this order exists, and is awarded, and is awarded by a notable person. Simple as that. --Cagepanes (talk) 02:51, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You seem to be missing my point. Kloberg is not notable for being anything but a crook and a poseur and even then, his notability is marginal at best.  (There are far more Google hits from _my_ name than his, and I don't have a Wiki about me, nor do I deserve one.)  You are suggesting Kloberg as a "notable recipient", apparently oblivious to the fact that his being "awarded" this "order" actually _weakens_ your argument.  Kloberg was a fraud who claimed many fake titles for himself.  The fact that Kigeli sold him one of his worthless "titles" does not provide you with a notable recipient nearly so much as it provides the other side with ammo _against_ that title. It's like if there were some Bible Belt preacher with a congregation of 500 and a "doctorate" from a diploma mill, who has a Wiki about him because he had been convicted of fleecing his flock.  And to lend support to that diploma mill deserving its own Wiki, someone cites said preacher as being a "notable recipient".  Does not compute. Occam&#39;s Shaver (talk) 05:13, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I think that it's a good time for a recap:  "The Royal Order of the Intare" is not, as suggested, a "continuation" of the pre-existing Royal Order of the Lion, which is a legitimate Belgian order instituted by the Belgian King in 1891, and still under the administration of the Royal House of Belgium. No reliable evidence has been found to show that any "Royal Order of the Intare" was ever awarded by Kigeli's predecessor, nor by Kigeli himself, prior to 1998. So, rather than the "Order" being a tradition, it's clearly an innovation. Many reliable second-party sources describe Kigeli's "awarding" of "The Royal Order of the Intare" as being a business enterprise rather than an order of chivalry or nobility. No legitimate order is simply traded for cash, as this one has repeatedly been reported as being. Authorities on chivalric orders, such as Guy Stair Sainty (author of "World Orders of Knighthood & Merit") characterize "The Royal Order of the Intare" as being bogus. As opposed to legitimate chivalric orders such as the nine Alliance Orders of Saint John or the Royal Victorian Order which, although granted by one particular fons honorum, are mutually recognized by other fontes honorum, "The Royal Order of the Intare" is not recognized by any legitimate body, nor does it seem to have been bestowed upon anyone who has received other legitimate orders. WP:N is not met by the so-called order. That phrase returns only 452 Google hits. Compare that to even "minor" (but fully legitimate) orders such as the Royal Victorian Order (143,000 hits), the Order of the Companions of Honour (112,000 hits) or the Order of St Michael and St George (179,000 hits). Also, the quality of the hits is poor, particularly compared to other, legitimate orders. <li>WP:N is not met by any of its confirmed recipients. "Category: Recipients of the Royal Order of the Intare" lists just 15 recipients. Some of these are clearly non-factual, such as Donald Rumsfeld, who is also listed as having been awarded the Golden Raspberry Award for Worst Supporting Actor. Significantly, of the 15 names listed, not one article provides sources to support the claim that the subject of the article has been so awarded; indeed, 11 of them never even mention the "order" in the body of the article. It's as if someone just went through and inserted "Recipients of the Royal Order of the Intare" in the category boxes in the footers of those articles. <li>After living in the US for more than 20 years (on taxpayer support), it is entirely possible -- even probable -- that Kigeli is now a US citizen and thus would be barred by Federal law from having a royal title, or granting titles to others.</ul> Having been king of a nation (albeit very briefly and very long ago), Kigeli meets WP:N. And because he is reported to have sold these self-styled titles to others, mention of this should be made in his article. But the article devoted to the "Order" itself should be deleted. Bricology (talk) 08:14, 20 August 2015 (UTC) Here's my recap: <ul> <li>This is an order given by a notable person, Kigeli IV of Rwanda. <li>The only source as to his citizenship states he is here on asylum. If you want to prove otherwise, provide a source. Speculation doesn't help anyone. <li>There are sources that this has been awarded, most notably to Edward von Kloberg III. Personal opinions on Kloberg's character don't matter. <li>There is coverage of this award in The Washington Times, the Journal of the Orders and Medal Society of America, the Journal of the Canadian Institute of Marketing, among others. <li>It is possible that this award may be a purchased one. If that were true, it would fall in the same category as: International Order of Saint Stanislaus, Niadh Nask, Noble Order of Saint George of Rougemont (look at 'revival' section), Vilatte Orders, Ordo Supremus Militaris Templi Hierosolymitani, Sovereign Military and Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem, etc. My point being, even if this is a self-styled order, that doesn't preclude it from having an article. --Cagepanes (talk) 22:24, 20 August 2015 (UTC)</ul>
 * Strong delete. Clearly a mill, selling a non-order to non-notables.  The real Order of the Lion is still the property of the Belgian Royal House, as it has been for more than a century.  Also, doesn't meet WP:N or sourcing guidelines.  Kigeli's entry should definitely include info about his bogus order, but this separate page deserves deletion. Occam&#39;s Shaver (talk) 18:08, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Cagepanes, you keep calling it an "order". It has never been proved to _be_ an order, in the sense that orders of chivalry are understood to be.  Orders have specific requirements, such as a monarch (or occasionally, a princely house or grand duchy) to act as the fons honorum.  Without _all_ of the necessary pieces in place, it's not a legitimate order; it's "self-styled".  Even then, without a significant proportion of the elements in place, it doesn't even qualify as "self-styled".  As bircology already pointed out, the very name was stolen from the Royal Belgian order.  Kigeli's "order" has been given a fake history, as Kigeli's predecessor never awarded it.  It appears to lack any significant number of recipients; it certainly lacks _notable_ recipients.  And you really ought to give the whole "Edward Kloberg is a notable recipient" shtick a rest; no one is impressed by Kloberg's "notability" as a recipient of anything legitimate.  I've no doubt that he bought _other_ fake titles as well; perhaps he was also the sole recipient of "the Royal Order of the Golden Kazoo".  But his connection would hardly confer notability upon "the Royal Order of the Golden Kazoo", now would it?  Kigeli's "order" does not seem to have any sort of chivalric community like the legitimate Venerable Order of St. John does, or even the self-styled Sovereign Military and Hospitaller Order of St. John does.  Really, this "order" is just a piece of paper and a crappy mass-produced decoration that's sold, no different from one of those mail-order Scottish feudal baronies that comes with a "deed" to a square foot of land in Scotland.  Would you also advocate for every fake Scottish feudal barony floating around out there to have its own Wiki?  Or how about the other 3 "orders" that Kigeli has recently trotted out -- "the Royal Orders of the Drum", "...the Crown" and "...the Crane"?  Can we look forward to 3 more Wikis -- each playing them up as legitimate too?  Where will it stop?  If Kigeli creates another 100 bogus "orders" to sell, are you fine with another 100 Wikis to cover (and promote) them?  I'm not impressed by the fact some other bogus "orders" already have their own Wikis.  One big difference between them and this one is that this one rests entirely upon the "royal prerogative" of Kigeli's status as an exiled king; it couldn't exist without him supposedly lending it legitimacy.  Consequently, a Wiki like that for the Sovereign Military and Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem _has_ to be there, since there's no notable head of the "order" on whose Wiki that information could be presented.  That's why whatever properly-sourced and notable information about his bogus "order" should simply be appended as a paragraph in Kigeli's own Wiki.  Giving it its own Wiki lends it legitimacy it does not deserve.  Anyway, I've said all I'm interested in on the topic; I'll let you and bircology hash it out further, if you so choose.  Nothing you've said has convinced me to change my mind.  I still say "strong delete". Occam&#39;s Shaver (talk) 00:15, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Comments by others?  Sandstein  07:57, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   07:57, 22 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - While Kigeli is a notable individual in and of himself, the fact that he's sold a bogus 'Royal Order' of his own making for the purposes of supporting himself in his later years is something that's best included as a paragraph or so in his own personal page. The order itself doesn't have much going for it in terms of notability, and the article as it stands now is a mess. I pretty much agree with the arguments made in the beginning here. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 08:31, 22 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Merge to Kigeli_V_of_RwandaThere are reliable sources that he sells the order. There is no evidence that the order is notable outside of his selling it. On an aside, non-citizens can get public housing and food stamps, the programs that administer these services are a patchwork of local, federal, state guidelines. --Savonneux (talk) 08:36, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Noting here that I've done a bit of editing to Kigeli_V_of_Rwanda myself. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 09:05, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * "On an aside, non-citizens can get public housing and food stamps, the programs that administer these services are a patchwork of local, federal, state guidelines.": This is true but for some, not all, non-citizens. More to the point regarding Kigeli (and a few of Barack Obama's Kenyan relatives, whose previously denied asylum claims were miraculously reopened and granted after he was elected in 2008), you can be a permanent resident or even just an asylee/refugee and collect public assistance and live indefinitely without becoming a US citizen and thus not being required (in Kigeli's case) to renounce foreign claims. You can also collect public assistance (regardless of status) on behalf of any US-born minor children who qualify for such assistance, since we're on the subject. Quis separabit?  13:41, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:39, 26 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.