Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Royal descendants of John William Friso (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__ to John William Friso. After the close script does the tagging, I will redirect and protect this title. As an edge case, the problem here is that the chart was copied into the article. So we can't just do a straight delete, even if consensus would allow it, we have to preserve the attribution history.

So for that reason, and reading it as a reasonable conclusion based on this discussion, I will let the script tag the talk pages for attribution, redirect the current title to the biography, and then fully protect the redirect. Doing this both enforces the consensus that this article should not exist and maintains compliance with our licensing terms. Courcelles (talk) 13:35, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Royal descendants of John William Friso
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

WP:G4, it was deleted on 21 August 2013, then recreated on 25 May 2014 and immediately nominated for deletion again, which inexplicably resulted in "no consensus". All the fundamental objections raised against the first and second creation have not been addressed: WP:NOTDIRECTORY, WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, WP:UNSOURCED, WP:V, WP:RS. Arguments raised by people in the "Keep" camp were, in both cases, that the issues "could be fixed" by finding beter sources etc.. The 2013 closer already said: Simply saying that other sources "could be" found, without providing any, is not good enough: we need actual verifiable sources, not just an editor's speculation that there may be some somewhere. "Keepers" in 2014 again said: some effort and sources have been added. I would address the possible original research issues instead of deleting it altogether. Which hasn't happened. The same 29 sources that were used before the 2014 AfD are still there on the current page. Nobody has bothered doing it, just suggested that somebody should. Most importantly, we still don't have an answer to the question: Why this is relevant? It seems to me that the statement John William Friso and his wife Marie Louise of Hesse-Kassel are the most recent common ancestors of all European monarchs, current and former, that have reigned since World War II. makes for an interesting footnote, but no more than that. And: only if it is supported by a reliable source. Which it still isn't, 9 years later. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:35, 4 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Sidenote: Why does the title only mention John William Friso if Marie Louise of Hesse-Kassel has exactly the same status of "common ancestor blahblahblah"? Typical. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:40, 4 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete Keep the trivial bit about the common ancestor, merge it to the John Friso article, then TNT the page. The "chart" is longer than the intro, but has no further information to offer. Oaktree b (talk) 18:22, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * You go back far enough, everyone on the planet has a common ancestor, I can't see why this fellow is more notable than xyz other person. Oaktree b (talk) 18:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. Shouldn't have been recreate when the first AfD resulted in delete. Hard to see how notable the topic is, especially when the claims in the lead did not cite any sources. The group did not received enough coverage to pass WP:NLIST. Tutwakhamoe (talk) 18:31, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people and Royalty and nobility.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:20, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Albania, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Lithuania,  and Brazil.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:21, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Spain, Sweden, Yugoslavia,  and Mexico.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:22, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per arguments given above. Maybe a category could be created and used to the articles of people who are royal descendants of him. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:13, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * We could put half of Europe in Category:Descendants of Charlemagne. I don't think it will be defining enough as a category. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:41, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep as reasonably split off from John William Friso. However, since the claim is about "the most recent common ancestors of all European monarchs, current and former, that have reigned since World War II," it should be radically shortened by eliminating all information about monarchies that haven't ruled since before WWII, so Austria-Hungary, Brazil, France, Germany and its kingdoms, principalities, and duchies, the minor Italian Kingdoms, Lithuania, Mexico, Portugal, and Russia, as well as information about successors after the last reigning monarchs. Jahaza (talk) 20:17, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Well if that is the subject, why is Royal descendants of John William Friso the title of the article? Why are these the contents of the article? By analogy with Chimpanzee–human last common ancestor, why don't we create a current monarchs in Europe last royal common ancestor article?
 * Incidentally, I may have missed the plate tectonics update, but last I checked, Brazil and Mexico weren't located in Europe. There is randomness galore. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:37, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * If deleted, the chart at the top should be merged into John William Friso. I agree each of the national lists is excessive since it's well understood that these monarchies are hereditary and each line of ancestry is duplicative of multiple other articles, but his being the common ancestor of current monarchs is significant enough to include such relationships in his main article. Reywas92Talk 22:18, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The chart may be valuable in his main article, the rest is just too much unnecessary information that can easily be looked up by people who would really like to know all the details. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:12, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I noticed that the chart doesn't include Felipe VI of Spain. 2601:249:9301:D570:6091:A32D:86A8:9A05 (talk) 03:34, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: It is interesting that the article title does not include his wife, who had an equal (or a majority, depending on your perspective) role in the "claim to fame". Curbon7 (talk) 00:06, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, I said that in my sidenote too. It's 2023, but for some people, women still don't count. When is "hi(s)story" also gonna be "herstory"? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:50, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NOTDIRECTORY and WP:LISTCRUFT. The chart has already been copied so no longer needs to be preserved. After deleting, a locked redirect would be awesome. gidonb (talk) 06:18, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * As in WP:REDIRECTPROTECTION? That may be a good idea. Is that also what @RodRabelo7 (below) means, or sees as a good option? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:24, 12 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Redirect. Is deleting really necessary? Simply redirect it. RodRabelo7 (talk) 01:45, 12 May 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.