Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rudy Kurniawan


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. The Bushranger One ping only 23:00, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Rudy Kurniawan

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Does not pass WP:CRIMINAL; crime does not seem extremely unusual, person is unknown for anything else (BLP1E). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:24, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 03:28, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 03:28, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
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 * Keep and rename - This, unlike "...on Twitter" articles, has some value. It teaches people a lesson about wine fraudulency and confidence tricks. Perhaps something can broaden up, like renaming this title and inserting analyses or cases. Likely, it is more about events than a person. --George Ho (talk) 05:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Maybe worth a line or two at wine fraud, but this is a definite WP:BLP1E issue where the one event likely wouldn't stand on its own. --BDD (talk) 05:25, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If that's the case, then we have to make an argument for deleting articles like Bernard Madoff (he was relatively unknown outside of financial circles prior to the Ponzi scheme collapsing, after all). However, to draw out an analogy, both men committed their crime over a period of years, their frauds were lucrative (in 2 auctions, Kurniawan netted $34 million), and they've both had repercussions in their respective fields (Madoff has resulted in increased scrutiny of financial planners, while Kurniawan has resulted in increased interest in fine wine collectors in regards to provenance and correctness of labels, bottles, corks, and capsules. Wine auctions now specifically mention whether the wine has been inspected by a specialist; auction houses now generally keep such specialists on retainer.). Tthaas (talk) 10:13, 4 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep under WP:GNG the subject has several independent sources describing his crimes. Subject was a major figure in the American wine auction world (enough that auctions of his wines merited note in wine press, such as Wine Spectator, and he was well-known enough in those circles that his collection was known as "the cellar," usually written as such). Fails to meet any other reason for Deletion_policy to come into play -- no copyright issues, it's not advertising, there are multiple reliable sources cited, it meets WP:BLP for NPOV, etc. As for not passing WP:CRIMINAL, the alleged victims include Bill Koch (who is still embroiled in a lawsuit with Kurniawan over fake wine), who's important enough to merit his own article; that would qualify it under "victim of the crime is a renowned national figure." WP:BLP1E? There are multiple sources cited, he was never low-profile in the auction world (and, indeed, the story has been optioned for a movie, so he is unlikely to remain low-profile either. Yes, WP:Crystal as far as a future movie goes, but the fact that the story has been optioned in such a way is an indication of general intterest as well), and his role was significant and well-documented. Am I missing something else? Tthaas (talk) 10:13, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep, Well with Vanity Fair billing him as the perpetrator of potentially the "largest case of wine fraud in history", I think the subject is notable, at least in the wine world anyway. I would like to see more coverage of his life before the scandal for BLP balance. Froggerlaura  ribbit 02:22, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep clearly passes WP:GNG with numerous, independent reliable sources which is only going to grow as more of the story gets out into the press. This scandal has rocked the wine world and sparked immense controversy as well as changes to the wine auction market. The credibility of formerly reputable auction houses like Christie's and Sotheby has been called into question as well as the reputation of many notable wine critics and writers such as Michael Broadbent, Allen Meadows and Jancis Robinson due to the far reaching taint of Kurniawan. The involvement and lawsuit of Bill Koch (businessman) adds even more notability as the The Billionaire's Vinegar is headed towards becoming a movie. AgneCheese/Wine 03:41, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep I think Tthaas's arguments for why neither WP:BLP1E and WP:CRIMINAL require deletion in this case are sound and notability is not an issue here with sufficient coverage. The article can be improved but should not be deleted. Davewild (talk) 18:10, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.