Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Russia–Turkey proxy conflict (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Russia–Turkey relations. Clear consensus that this needs to end up as a redirect, but no consensus regarding whether to delete or to merge. That conversation can be further pursued on the talk page of Russia–Turkey relations if desired by editors. The content is preserved behind the redirect should it be needed for merging purposes. Daniel (talk) 00:54, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Russia–Turkey proxy conflict

 * – ( View AfD View log )

The article sources allege there is a proxy war between Turkey and Russia while it's mainly geopolitical differences. None of the sources confirm any proxy conflict existing other than the tensions between the two countries over certain issues such as Syria. However, both countries are in agreement over various international affairs as stated in the introduction of the countries' relations article. Apparently, the main reasoning for the article's existence is over the shootdown of a Russian fighter jet in 2015. And as I've stated in the article's talk page, both nations resolved the issue almost immediately. This page uses the same rationale as did the articles about there being a proxy conflict between Turkey with France, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. All these three were deleted for the same reason, lack of notability, factual accuracy, and/or verifiability.

This page was nominated for deletion once before. No consensus was the result of the discussion. WikiCleanerMan (talk) --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 15:41, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2021 March 4.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 16:05, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 16:08, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 16:08, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 16:08, 4 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge and delete: merge content with the Russia–Turkey relations article, then delete this proxy conflict article. Morgengave (talk) 18:38, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * What would be the point when their relations articles already states the gist of what this article alleges? --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:36, 6 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge and deleteper filer and per Buidhe who in the forgoing deletion discussion voted delete.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:24, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete – per my comments on the talk page which led to this RfC. After reviewing the sources I cannot find experts describing the Russia-Turkey relationship as a consistent proxy conflict, instead it's variously referred to as "competition"/"rivalry"/a "shaky alliance" etc., with pragmatic cooperation in areas of mutual interest. (Example sources:    ). This article appears to heavily rely on OR, citing news reports about events in which both Russia & Turkey are involved, and connecting these events to a broader "conflict" when the sources don't go this far. The sources do describe the Syrian and Libyan civil wars as "proxy wars" or "mercenary wars" in which both Russia & Turkey have been competing through the use of mercenaries/direct military intervention – but describing those individual conflicts as proxy wars doesn't equate to there being a being a actual proxy conflict between Russia and Turkey themselves (à la Iran–Saudi Arabia proxy conflict). I can't find strong sourcing to support such an exceptional claim. As there's no significant narrative on the page describing the nuances/nature of the alleged proxy conflict (it's mostly a list of events supposedly part of the conflict), I'm personally in favour of outright deletion per WP:TNT in order to remove the mess of OR. However, if other editors can see something worth salvaging it can be merged into Russia–Turkey relations.  Jr8825  •  Talk  18:29, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect to Russia–Turkey relations. This article is clearly prone to WP:OR and WP:SYNTH issues and its existence isn't tenable in the near or long term. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 20:57, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect per all aboveShadow4dark (talk) 16:49, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect to Russia–Turkey relations. There is way too much OR/SYNTH in the article for a merge or to make the history worth saving. The assertion that this is a proxy conflict (which I agree with, but that's an opinion) does not have support in sources and the SYNTH is used to support the assertion without actually using sources.  // Timothy :: talk  12:30, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect Create a section in Russia–Turkey relations entitled "Syrian-Turkish conflicts contributing to Turkish-Russian tensions." Redirect this article to that section while preserving the edit history.--Kerbyki (talk) 14:25, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect per above--Sakiv (talk) 21:24, 11 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.