Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Russian mystery fires (2022–present)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Liz Read! Talk! 20:55, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Russian mystery fires (2022–present)

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

The article is a clear case of WP:OR and WP:CRYSTALBALL. There is no single, reliable source that gathers all the fire cases as elements of the same phenomenon. It's nothing more than speculation to claim that they are all connected or the results of some sort of sabotage effort. Wikipedia isn't the place to publish such lists. Marcelus (talk) 20:40, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Marcelus (talk) 20:40, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep but prune. I have previously attempted to reduce the list, with some pushback. There are way too many fires on the list which are just fires, where the source does not link them to a wider pattern. But there is reliable sourcing for there being a pattern. I’d be open to dropping the list entirely and just keep the prose element of the article, which has relatively decent sourcing. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 21:08, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep some data, but change. It has certainly turned into a list of "all fires". I do not like the current name. If there are at least 10 fires believed to be sabotage, then turn this into a page along the lines of Rail war in Russia (2022–present) and rename to something like Sabotage in Russia (2022–present), it will shrink to a meaningful article. Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 21:40, 4 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep this is a list disguised as an article - and like the above, there is decent sourcing talking about the fires. Furthermore, there are sources that link several fires together in the article, like this: so I do not think the list should be removed, however unlinked fires that are not mentioned as a 'mystery' fire in sources should definitely be removed. &mdash; Karnataka  talk  21:41, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Barnards.tar.gz, @Karnataka, @Ânes-pur-sàng: There are source talking about the fires, sure, several of them are linked together, sure. But is there any reliable source that says that these fires are examples of some wider sabotage action? No. It's pure speculation, no place for it on Wiki. There can be an article about sabotage in Russia during the recent war (although at this point it would most likely be a fork), there can exist articles about any of the mentioned fires if they are significant enough, but list like this is a pure crystal ball. Marcelus (talk) 22:18, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

It is a phenomenon that is noted and must remain part of wikipedia. I'd resist any editing right now (admit there are issues) there is valuable information that may be verified, or not, in future years. Thelisteninghand (talk) 00:58, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep There is indeed media linking fires together and speculating about their causes and increase since Feb 22. Just one example here: https://www.newsweek.com/russia-fire-moscow-roscosmos-weapons-1780987


 * Strong Keep I started the article. I'm 100% ok with fires of known origin being removed from this list, but fires of unknown origin with references ought to remain. I respectfully deny that WP:OR and WP:CRYSTALBALL apply here, because every single fire or explosion in this list is (and is to be) referenced. These are fires that are of mysterious origin, and there has been reliable, referenced speculation that some are due to some kind of sabotage (for example: https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220508-is-ukraine-conducting-a-sabotage-campaign-inside-russia-1). Such verifiable speculation is not made by the Wikipedia community (in which case WP:OR and WP:CRYSTALBALL would apply), it is made by reliable outlets and is therefore notable and should be part of this article. Should sabotage be officially noted for any specific fire, it should be removed from this list. As well, should some other speculation be made as to the cause of these fires in a serious news source it should be added to the article. Victor Grigas (talk) 01:29, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong keep I don’t like the term “arson” being used to describe an act of war. It’s suggests criminal intent, when the facilities are in fact, legitimate targets during wartime. However, these acts will have lasting notability. Juneau Mike (talk) 22:13, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per above passes WP:GNG.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 19:39, 10 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.