Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SMERSH (James Bond)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The one "keep" opinion doesn't address the problem of the lack of reliable third-party sources, which is also a big problem for the one "merge" opinion. This does not preclude a brief mention of the fictional organization in the article about the real organization, if there is editorial consensus for that.  Sandstein  09:37, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

SMERSH (James Bond)

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Prodded with "The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing General notability guideline requirement nor the more detailed Notability (fiction) supplementary essay. WP:BEFORE did not reveal any significant coverage on Gnews, Gbooks or Gscholar. ", deprodded by the usual deprodded who offered no meaningful rationale despite being asked to, here we go again. Article is sourced to books/movies only, is a pure plot summary/OR and does not suggest that the topic got any reception/analysis (nor did my BEFORE find any, as noted). Some Bond characters are notable (including one or two that belong to SMERSH - but WP:NOTINHERITED, of course), organizations much less so. Fortunately we don't have CIA (James Bond), MI-6 (James Bond), not to mention, Soviet Union (James Bond) and so on... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:34, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  05:34, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  05:34, 14 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete merge content into James Bond article, although I note that article only has a single mention of SMERSH. Update SMERSH article to point to James Bond. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 06:10, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. Hyperbolick (talk) 08:48, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep it You write that we don't have articles "MI-6 (James Bond)" nor "CIA (James Bond)". However both CIA and MI-6 in the James Bond novels look like in real life, while SMERSH is distorted; the article states that in reality it existed only from 1943 to 1946. MichalZim (talk) 17:04, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , Interesting. Do you have sources to prove this claim? Other than one's own personal analysis of the novels/movies? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:47, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I was asked for other sources, other than the article. Here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/08850600701651292 Robert W. Pringle writes that SMERSH existed only till 1946, while it still exists later in James Bond novels. MichalZim (talk) 16:32, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , Right, but as far as I can tell the article you quote doesn't discuss the Bond's universe at all? It's just one of many articles about the real SMERSH. Which of course is notable. What we are discussing here is the Bond's SMERSH. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:03, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * In https://spywhothrills.com/fromrussiawithlovefleming it is written that Fleming claimed that "SMERSH continues to function, General Grubozaboyschikov (the head of SMERSH) is a real person (...)". The text states, however "These claims have been refuted, however, as SMERSH became defunct in 1946, General Grubozabyschikov is a fictional character (...)". I do not remember such an introduction to "From Russia With Love", however. Maybe it's been expurgated in the later printings. MichalZim (talk) 05:01, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , The issues we run into this time are two. First, the source does not contain a WP:SIGCOV of SMERSH, so it is not helpful in saving this article as a independent entity. Second, it seems like a blog (all I can find about the author is that they self-identify as "A superfan's knowledge and insight concerning all things 007"), so it fails WP:RS. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:00, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't have enough interest in James Bond novels to spend any time on looking for sources, but I must say that I'm rather surprised by this nomination. As someone who has very little interest in this genre I am still certainly familiar with the subject of this article, and would be very surprised if more motivated editors couldn't find sources. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , Just to make clear. You do realize that there is a very notable and real SMERSH? Many people are familiar with SMERSH, as the organization was portrayed in numerous works of fiction. What we discuss here is its portrayal in Bond's universe, and that wasn't particularly memorable or impactful. Particularly as, per the article, "In the Bond film series, SMERSH is usually replaced with SPECTRE". Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do realise that. Phil Bridger (talk) 06:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The argument that SMERSH is an unimportant James Bond opponent (as it has been changed to SPECTRE in the movies) is absurd. James Bond was trying to cripple SMERSH in Casino Royale, and, while you can't actually call it his main opponent in this novel (they actually let him live), SMERSH was James Bond's main opponent in quite a few of James Bond books. MichalZim (talk) 16:32, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , Which is all well and good but for this fact to appear on Wikipedia and not be WP:OR we need sources. And while we can use Flemming's books for that, they are not sufficient to prove notability of the concept in question. Most things that appear just in fiction do not warrant a dedicated Wikipedia article. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:04, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I think now I get the idea. Grubozaboyschikov and Donovan Grant are mentioned in https://spywhothrills.com/fromrussiawithlovefleming SMERSH structure can be found in https://spywhothrills.com/casinoroyalefleming MichalZim (talk) 05:01, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , Please see my response above where you first mentioned this source. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:01, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete: per nom CommanderWaterford (talk) 22:51, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge to SMERSH. While there doesn’t seem to be any independent notoriety, I think we can allow a few lines on the main page to say that they were the inspiration for the fictional organisation, and to note major differences. --Killer Moff- ill advisedly sticking his nose in since 2011 (talk) 08:37, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , I'd be happy to do it myself, IF the article had a single reliable source... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Hope I am answering in the good place. Concept of Merging is strange. Should we write in the article SMERSH what are the organisation's departments in the novel "Casino Royale"? Or that the leader in "From Russia With Love" is Grubozaboyschikov (which, I think, may be translated as "Fat killer", by "fat" meaning "a lot")? MichalZim (talk) 16:32, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , I am not sure what is strange. Many articles about real-life entities have 'in popular culture' sections. There is nothing wrong with an article about real SMERSH having such a section that would mention that this organization has been portrayed in several of Flemming's Bond books. The main problem we have right now is that such content should be referenced, and nobody has presented any references outside the primary source/fictional Bond's books for anything here. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:06, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete - Topic lacks sufficient sourcing to meet WP:GNG. No content seems worth merging. If the topic is worthy of a redirect, someone can create a fresh redirect after deletion. TTN (talk) 18:44, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete - There are currently no reliable sources in the article, and the coverage of the fictional, Bond-specific version of the organization in reliable sources is extremely scant in general. I probably would not be opposed to adding a line or two of sourced content in the main SMERSH article regarding fictional portrayals of it, but as there is no actual non-primary sources in this article, merging would not be appropriate. Rorshacma (talk) 19:48, 21 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.