Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Saab Lofton


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus.  MBisanz  talk 23:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Saab Lofton

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

check reference links most are non working. KLAV says he was on air for approximately 30 days total. Hardly qualifies as a radio personality. A.D. was printed by III Publishing which publishes pamphlets not books. quantity for the A.D. pamphlets 2000. The second book Battle Neverending was described by Pop Occulture Magazine as "obviously a low-budget and quite-possibly home-printed affair". Pertaining to his being a cartoonist, he has a self published comic Rufus the Black Cat (zerox copies that he pan handles to people at comic conventions) As far as I can tell it is not even on ongoing series. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkonaghast (talk • contribs)
 * Delete. Looks like he has two or three books that are either self-published or published by an extremely small press. Other than that, zero notablility.  Graymornings (talk) 05:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Notability is not conferred by numbers of books or who publishes them, it's conferred by significant coverage in reliable sources, such as the Seattle Times and Pittsburgh Post-Gazette articles. Regards, Skomorokh  05:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions.   -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.   -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Radio-related deletion discussions.   -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions.   -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep as subject is the focus of coverage in multiple major US newspapers, small press publishing is just as valid as the New York publishing houses for notability as an author, and I am quite concerned that the nominator's first and only edit is this nomination. - Dravecky (talk) 17:27, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notability doesn't depend on how long he was on the radio or who published his books, but on substantial coverage in reliable sources, which has been demostrated. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment accutally it does mater who published the books. If the books are self published, they do not make good references for demonstrating notability.--Rtphokie (talk) 21:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nobody would suggest that books the subject has written could be references which demonstrate notability - not only are the books not about Lofton, they are not independent of him, and so completely fail to contribute to WP:GNG. We're talking about the third party articles. Skomorokh  21:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep for the record, easily meets WP:GNG per my comment above and further references in the article. Skomorokh  21:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Not all minor news articles constitutes evidence of notability. If that were the case then every Dick and Sally would have to be included.--User:Arkonaghast 22:50, 10 December 2008
 * Again, nobody is suggesting that "all minor news articles constitutes evidence of notability". What is being asserted is that the references here constitute significant coverage in reliable sources (thus meaning the topic fulfills the general notability guideline), which no-one has contested. Skomorokh  00:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment significant means fairly large in amount or quantity .Two interviews in a reputable newspaper hardly qualifies as significant. all other links are only to try to justify his assertions of being an author, cartoonist and radio personality .He isn't notable in any of the formentioned fields. He doesn't meet the criteria .--User:Arkonaghast —Preceding undated comment was added at 00:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC).
 * No, significant means "that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content", which I think these certainly do. Neither is notability field-restrictive. The only question here is 'is this a topic which has been covered by reliable sources such that Wikipedia can have a decent-length stub article without original research?', and the answer is plain from looking at our current article. So what "criteria" are you referring to? Skomorokh  01:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes that's true but it also addresses triviality. Notability isn't not the only consideration in a debate. the contents and subject of his references I believe are trivial. Substantive coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, however it does not guarantee, notability. It could very well violate what Wikipedia is not a "soap box".--User:Arkonaghast —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC).


 * Delete. He is not notable in any field described by the article. While notability is not temporary, I do think we should consider than anyone who holds a position such as a radio announcer reaches a large audience and receives some attention, but among those who carry this profession, they must draw attention to themselves to have notability. The short tenure of his work as an announcer and inability to ahcieve notability in the other fields seems to point to a deletion.Mrathel (talk) 22:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. Did you look at the sources presented above? They show that attention has been paid to the subject by reliable sources. Whether this was because of his radio work, his writing or something else is irrelevant, what is important is that people have written about him in reliable sources. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. Once again, substantive coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, however it does not guarantee, notability. 1st reference doesn't work, 2nd reference is an interview about a guest speaker at subject's college from ten years ago (trivial ar best), 3rd reference is a schedule of subjects radio show on air 30 days, 4th reference is one sentence in an article where subject asks one question at a nuclear protest, 5th reference is an interview from ten years ago about a pamphlet that was published by a small defunct anarchist publisher, 6th reference is to establish that he sometimes submits articles to the seattle sinner (a free publication in Seattle) and lastly the 7th reference is about a comic that he peddles on the street. It consists of three stapled black and white zerox sheets. See comic here(http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=258171157/PictureID=6485526971/a=156048755_156048755/t_=156048755).

This hardly qualifies as notable as it is severely trivial at best.--User:Arkonaghast THIS IS SAAB LOFTON. I HAVE SOLD THOUSANDS, I REPEAT, * THOUSANDS * OF COPIES OF RUFUS OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS. IT'S CLEARLY BEYOND YOUR GRASP THAT I'M DENIED COVERAGE BECAUSE THE MASS MEDIA IS OWNED BY A HANDFUL OF RIGHT-WING CORPORATIONS (MEANWHILE, IF BRITNEY "BREAD AND CIRCUSES" SPEARS SO MUCH AS STUBS HER TOE, IT'S FRONT PAGE NEWS), BUT TALK TO THE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO'VE GOTTEN A COPY AND ASK THEM HOW WORTHY OF AN ENTRY I AM. HERE, LET ME HELP YOU ...  From: ricco bonicalzi (rick_bonicalzi@hotmail.com) Sent: Thu 12/11/08 6:23 PM   Saab - I bought a copy of Rufus the Black Cat from you on Broadway last week and enjoyed it very much. I'm happy to be exposed to your work. I will keep checking your website and look forward to running into you again. Ricco Bonicalzi ... WANT ANOTHER ONE? HERE YA GO ...  From: Elizabeth Rapuzzi (missrapuzzi@gmail.com) Sent: Sat 7/26/08 9:57 PM   Saab, Hi, my name's Liz and I just bought a couple copies of your Rufus comic near the tobacco shop on Broadway. Money well spent, obviously.Not only did I enjoy your work, but damn, man, we're both Greeners!I'll admit, I always get excited meeting other Evergreen Alums, justbecause almost without fail they're doing something with theirexperience and convictions. I graduated last year and my partner justgraduated last month. Are you at that spot selling your comicsregularly? I went to your website and I'd love to chat more.Peace,Liz ... NOT ENOUGH? CHECK IT ...  From: Mike Smith (smittynm@hotmail.com) Sent: Sun 9/21/08 12:00 AM   Saab, Thanks for speaking at the 9/11 truth antiwar rally last week! I really enjoyed your speech and included some clips of it in my new video, so I thought you would want to see. Hopefully this video will help inspire more people to take part in these things. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apGCoLqQUKc thanks again, Mike "pedals on the street," INDEED! FIRST, IT'S SPELLED "PEDDLES," GENIUS. SECOND, IF A NATIONWIDE BOOK TOUR WOULD SUFFICIENTLY IMPRESS YOU, ASK A CORPORATE PUBLISHER TO QUIT BEING SO GODDAMN COWARDLY AND FUND ONE! THIRD, THIS QUOTE NAILED IT: "I am quite concerned that the nominator's 'first and only edit' is this nomination." HOW ABOUT PROVING TO ME THE NOMINATOR AIN'T IN LEAGUE WITH THE SAME STALKER WHO'S BEEN VANDALIZING WIKIPEDIA ALL SUMMER LONG?
 * comment I think we should probably keep this debate about the sources and their ability to generate notability, and I think you should probably refrain from posting the email adresses of your fans on this forum. My grandmother wrote me an email last week, while I am tempted to start a wikipedia article about it, I think it would probably best to read the WP:notability rules first... Mrathel (talk) 06:59, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

"My grandmother wrote me an email last week, while I am tempted to start a wikipedia article about it ..." GOD IN HEAVEN, HOW I HATE SNIDE  WHITE  SARCASM: DID YOUR GRANDMOTHER CONGRATULATE YOU ON HAVING SOLD THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF COPIES OF A COMIC/NOVEL IN RECORD TIME withOUT THE BENEFIT OF A CORPORATE-SIZED ADVERTISING BUDGET? DID YOUR GRANDMOTHER COMMEND YOU FOR HAVING TAKEN AN UNcensored STAND AGAINST GENOCIDAL, CAPITALISTIC IMPERIALISM? BESIDES, IF I DIDN'T POST THOSE E-MAIL ADDRESSES, SOMEONE COY AND SMUG WOULD'VE CLAIMED I MADE THEM UP! DAMNED IF I DO, DAMNED IF I DO, I SUPPOSE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.113.99.224 (talk) 16:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment There's a lot of heat but very little light coming from the comments by the nominator who, curiously, has only ever edited this AfD. Not one edit to the nominator's credit that was not either the nomination itself or a comment here.  Anybody is welcome to edit Wikipedia but I am strongly suspicious of a Single Purpose Account such as this one. - Dravecky (talk) 17:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.