Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sabine Römer


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  12:59, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Sabine Römer

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promotional without any evidence for notability  The awards are trivial -- and some are only nominations, not awards.  DGG ( talk ) 19:12, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 19:26, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 19:26, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 19:26, 11 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete, nothing adds up to notable here. Hyperbolick (talk) 19:39, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete there is actually passing coverage in the NY Times, and better coverage in The Evening Standard and a couple other decent publications. However all the coverage basically does, even when it is more than a paragraph, is talk about how great a piece from her limited edition line of bangle-hoop-rings would look paired with a pair of slacks by (insert name) designer. She is definitely known and written about, but the coverage is pretty much entirely promotional, in the product sense of the word.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 05:39, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
 *  Keep Weak Keep Seems to meet People's WP:BASIC criteria for notability, since the coverage is from multiple reliable secondary sources. Some of the depth in the articles isn't substantial, but the amount of coverage should make up for it. From searching Google and the article, I've found she is mentioned at least 3 times in the New York Times , twice in Vogue  , at least in one book (Fashion Africa - Jacqueline Shaw) and has created jewelry for Nelson Mandela, Morgan Freeman, and Angelina Jolie - so she is at least notable in her industry. Also, not all of the sources mention "limited edition lines" or are only promotional like stated above - but even then, it makes sense for a jeweler's work to be mentioned frequently in articles about a jeweler. I think the current article is mostly let down by neglect, poor research and a lack of weeding out bad sources - so it's hard for me to vote "Delete" until further research/editing is done. Whisperjanes (talk) 02:33, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , here is the text that mentions Romer, taken from all the sources you mentioned. I am very curious about how you would get anything but a few scant basic facts out of these items:
 * New York Times 1: The London jeweler Sabine Roemer recently toned down a feminine rose gold ring by adding black diamonds for a male client and customized a round tanzanite ring for a woman “so the design is softer than sharp male lines,” she said.
 * New York Times 2:...and the jeweller Sabine Roemer paired a simple diamond star stud with three strands of stars in glittering sapphires and fluorites cascading from a monochrome moon. Ms. Roemer also created an agate cameo from two stones that were bought years apart. One is a portrait in green, the other a group of women rendered in blue, and detailing in green fluorites, topaz and amethysts to harmonize it all... “Asymmetric earrings, of course, should be matching or seem to be but there’s an element of the unexpected that I like,” Ms. Roemer said. “The look gives me the space to create within one piece.”
 * New York Times 3: "THE BUZZ “After 23 years in the business I still keep learning from Katerina’s amazing and knowledgeable posts,” said Sabine Roemer, goldsmith, jeweler and co-founder of Atelier Romy, based in London.”
 * Vogue 1: Master goldsmith Sabine Roemer had a busy London studio making a limited number of stand-out jewellery pieces for private clients, but… “Sabine just understands the way jewellery should be worn, placed, cared for and seen.”...“Something easy to wear, with no fuss, but looking like high jewellery. I think this was the most important part for us so we can wear it with our engagement rings, heirlooms and diamond jewellery and it can blend in instead of standing out like silver, custom or fashion jewellery,” says Roemer…. “And, by cutting out the middleman by selling direct online, we are able to price conscious and competitive,” explains German-born Roemer, who is the creative design head of the label. We wanted to transfer our skill-sets to create a brand that is approachable, cool, collectable and long-lasting with pieces you can gift to your mum, sister, daughter or best friend. Instead of sending a bunch of flowers you can gift a beautiful crafted rose gold eternity ring ... how good is that?”
 * Vogue 2: "The Emerald Queen, a life-size elephant designed by Sabine Roemer using Gemfields Zambian emeralds, was sold to an anonymous bidder for a whopping £150,000!"
 * Hello Magaine (source 6): "Jewellery artist Sabine Roemer also revealed the level of detail that went into the gown, stating it "took over 50 hours to handcraft the fine gold plated corset."
 * ThatMontrealIP (talk) 04:59, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , my point was that "Some of the depth in the articles isn't substantial, but the amount of coverage should make up for it" per WP:BASIC. In some of the big name sources, yes, they are mostly passing mentions. However, I would assume she's well-known enough in her industry to be called on for quotes and to be featured in bigger name sources, unless I'm missing something. Why would she be called for a quote in the New York Times to comment on another jeweler's work if she's not considered notable or at least an expert in her industry? She's also been consulted in a Forbes article about diamonds. In the articles I mentioned above, she's talking about her business (which is making jewelry), so I personally don't think it's that weird that her quotes sound like she is only talking about jewelry. It's what she does, so I don't know why that should count against her in any way. However, if what you're pointing out is that most of these articles are heavy with quotes from her, I would agree - that is a problem, and I'm having a hard time finding articles that aren't laden with quotes from her.
 * And when I said "not all of the sources mention 'limited edition lines' or are only promotional", I was talking about all sources about her, not just the ones I mentioned. I didn't decide to sit down and list every source that existed out there about her. She and her work have been featured in other places:      . In multiple sources, she's also been mentioned as the "youngest ever female Masters graduate from Germany’s Pforzheim Goldsmith and Watchmaker school" or the "youngest ever female master goldsmith." But I will admit I'm not the best judge at weeding out bad sources - I apologize I can't give a more concise list.
 * Comment But my biggest problem with this article being nominated for deletion isn't that she's "obviously" notable (because I don't think that's the case), but instead, I think there hasn't been any attempt at all to update, research, or clean up her article first, which I think would make notability much more obvious. There's only about 50 edits to her article at all, and the only substantial content edits (other than deleting dead links or deleting unsourced content) seem to be from the beginning in 2011 by the article's creator. I think the article needs to be "improved rather than deleted" WP:BEFORE it's nominated for deletion - since it's poorly sourced and has a promotional tone - but there hasn't even been any effort to do so or attempt to start that discussion, as far as I can tell. No cleanup tags, no "needs more sources," no discussion in the talk page - nothing.
 * I still do not think the sources are any good. I only checked #8 that you provided above: "Design-loving, value-conscious shoppers will also want to research master jewelers with direct-to-consumer luxury brands that sell exclusively via Websites and Instagram. For example, London-based Sabine Roemer jewelry artist https://www.sabineroemer.com/ holds a master's degree from Germany's Pforzheim Goldsmith and Watchmaking School https://goldschmiedeschule.de/ and operates a bespoke jewelry business that caters to high net worth individuals. Roemer's natural diamond jewels have been sold at London's leading luxury emporium Harrods https://www.harrods.com/en-gb/fine-jewellery auctioned for charity at Christie's https://www.christies.com/locations/salerooms/king-street/, and worn by actors such as Morgan Freeman to the Academy Awards. Roemer designs for Atelier Romy https://www.atelierromy.com/ . Selling online only, Atelier Romy passes the savings on to customers in their fine jewelry line, which is made in sterling silver, as well as yellow gold and rose gold vermeil." ThatMontrealIP (talk) 00:25, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think some sort of "quote war," without explanations as to why specific quotes are chosen, is the most helpful to onlookers/users. I refrained from pasting long quotes above when only Roemer's dialogue was quoted from the first Vogue article, but I feel I should mention that parts of the article were left out, including facts about her and her work. Yes, the quote you mentioned is a part of source #8, but there is a whole section underneath where Roemer also speaks about the difference between her process when working with lab-grown versus natural diamonds. To me, that is from a reliable source, that points to her having at least some expertise in her field.
 * For all the bigger name sources I mentioned: they aren't press releases, they are from reliable/verifiable sources, they aren't promoted content (since there is no by-line by the author of these reputable sources stating so), so I don't know what makes them not "any good" as sources. If you're saying the sound of the content in these sources make the sources not good, I would point to WP:BIASED which says that even though wiki articles must have a neutral POV, "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." So the fact that these articles sound promotional or have quotes or content that talk about her jewelry or business---these quotes themselves that are being pulled out don't make them unreliable as sources. Because so far, all that's been said of the sources is that they sound "promotional" or are not "any good," but they're allowed to have a non-neutral tone as long as they're from reliable, non-promoted sources. And many of these sources do include information/facts about her or her work. Whisperjanes (talk) 02:18, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not a quote war. It is just a routine discussion. You are presenting sources that you suggest support notability. I am presenting actual text in the sources, so other editors can see how thin (i.e. not in-depth) the coverage is. I might point out that you also seem to be arguing that notability of the subject can come from the quality of the publication itself or its approval when you  say, for example, Why would she be called for a quote in the New York Times to comment on another jeweler's work if she's not considered notable; notability does not come solely from that. We editors detemrine notability base on the quality and depth of the reporting that is in a good quality publication-- reporters do not determine notability for a wiki article. In pretty much all of the sources you've given, the publications are high quality but the coverage is shallow, trivial or promotional. It does strike me that her company might be notable, but not her.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 06:43, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm realizing the "quote war" bit sounded snappier than I meant it. You are right, the content from the first few articles is less substantial than I first realized. I thought the only problem being mentioned about the sources was that they had parts that sounded promotional, which didn't seem like enough to disregard them, but I agree that many don't seem to have much depth. I do think the second set of articles I mentioned have more in-depth/substantial content, but then the reliability of them is in question (since I don't know which jewelry or lifestyle magazines out there are reliable), which is what I'm stuck on. It feels like there is significant coverage and reliable sources, but the sources that are reliable are so light that it's right on the teetering edge for me of being enough or not. -- Whisperjanes (talk) 07:16, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I looked at the Citizen Femme source above ("youngest ever female Masters graduate from Germany’s Pforzheim Goldsmith and Watchmaker school"), and it is clearly a paid placement. Their advertising kit] offer campaigns that "include copy written by Citizen Femme, video content, image galleries and the creation of supporting media.". Once I see that a company has paid for one fake article, any skepticism goes up a notch or two.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 07:29, 16 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete per the analysis by ThatMontrealIP. Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED from coverage of her jewelry company, which doesn't seem to be notable either. shoy (reactions) 19:55, 13 February 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.