Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Saetia


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus.  MBisanz  talk 03:09, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Saetia

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Lack of reliable coverage of this band. Google news provides no hits and no allmusic article. neon white talk 07:02, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. An article from "Metal Injection" says "Over the course of the last decade, the dissonant hardcore sound that was reinvented and pioneered by CTTS and other luminaries like PG. 99, HOT CROSS , ORCHID , and SAETIA...". Thus this asserts the notability of the band, as a pioneering figure. . - Binary TSO ???
 * Keep No Allmusic entry, you say? Well, what's this, calling them "one of the great screamo bands"? Or this four-and-a-half-stars-out-of-five review of their retrospective? This was a pioneering '90s underground screamo group, whose lack of news coverage is due to the fact that major news agencies don't cover underground hardcore (not, thereby, a reason for us to ignore it). You're looking in the wrong places (as usual!). Idiomag reviewed their retrospective eight years after the group broke up. Tiny Mix Tapes calls them "Genre-defining", and Prefix Magazine called them "monumental". . Geoff Rickly of Thursday, in an interview with Alternative Press, said he regards them as pivotal among his early influences (they played in his basement!). A review of offline '90s punk publications would provide reviews (try Punk Planet, HeartattaCk, and Maximum Rocknroll). The group meets WP:MUSIC points 6 and 7, the former for its connections to the highly notable Hot Cross and Interpol(!). Chubbles (talk) 17:46, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * all trivial mentions in largely unreliable sources. We can't rely on circular notbility either. Common sense applies to all guidelines. There is certainly no evidence whatsoever that this band is "the most prominent representative of a notable style". To suggest so is stretching criteria a long way past breaking point. --neon white talk 16:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Not at all the case. Allmusic, Tiny Mix Tapes, and Prefix are all well-established review sites, and the TMT and Prefix references are necessarily retrospective, having been written about Hot Cross, a more recent band. When Hot Cross was signed to Equal Vision, everyone sat up and said, "Hey, that's the singer from Saetia!". Are they the most prominent? I don't know how to determine that, and it sounds like it'd be largely a matter of opinion anyway, but they are undoubtedly one of the most prominent. Chubbles (talk) 16:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Tiny Mix Tapes, and Prefix have no reputation at all. We have to insist on good sources with reputations not just someones random, one of the literaly thousands out there, website because we cannot find any better sources, this suggests non-notability to be. We don't extend the idea of reliable coverage to include anything. If we did this notability would be a pointless concept. Notability can't really be inherited from another band who's notability is seriously questionable as well and seems to largely rely on having members of a previous band that in my opinion is equally non-notable. --neon white talk 05:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * We do extend it to third-party review sites; this is independent coverage, and the Allmusic reviews (seemingly ignored by all observers) are illuminating as well. The fact that there are thousands of websites out there is meaningless, and I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove; all I've attempted to prove is that this particular group is of sufficient renown to merit encyclopedic interest. Hot Cross and Interpol are both quite notable; there is no serious question about this. Chubbles (talk) 13:17, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The point of notability is that there is a line, we don't move it to include anything we want or there would be little point in the policy existing. It says significant coverage in reliable sources and the burden of proof is on the sources to prove reliabilty. We usually consider reputation, history and editorial control as factors in reliability. It's very rare that a small music review webzine/site/blog is going to have any of those. THe point i am making is that it is very easy for people to self-publish music reviews and there are thousands who do, so it's almost inevitable that any non-notable band is going to be 'noted' be one of these sources and that is why we don't usually consider them. It might be independent coverage but it isn't in a publication of any note or reputation. The allmusic reviews are fine but not usually enough to establish notability. Hot Cross notability is questionable and not established in the article and seems to be based on circular notability. Persons who were with a band whilst they were still unknown usually do not inherit any notability from them so i think the interpol link is not relevent. --neon white talk 08:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * For the last time, Hot Cross is notable. Also note how often Saetia keeps getting brought up in these reviews; Hot Cross was like a screamo supergroup, with Saetia leading the pack of forefathers. If this were one or two small-market self-publications you'd have a case, but it's not. There is a clear consensus outside of Wikipedia that this group is important, and I am trying to have that reflected inside of Wikipedia. Chubbles (talk) 15:16, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep as Chubbles said above, you might not find a lot of "mainstream" sources for this band, but there's a wealth of "underground" media reporting on them. I'll take some time myself to add to the article, as it is currently lacking any good sources at all. neon white has a point. I'll stay neutral until I can find some good sources to back up the claims made. Radiant chains (talk) 18:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Not being covered by mainstream reliable sources generally suggests something isn't notable. Remember this isnt a music directory. --neon white talk 16:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This argument amounts to "the group does not pass WP:GNG even though it passes WP:MUSIC, and so should be deleted". What is the purpose of having WP:MUSIC if we are not going to use it as an indicator of a group's significance? Chubbles (talk) 21:34, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:MUSIC is a guideline not a policy, it's there so that editor can get an idea of what might be considered notability in music articles, reliable sources are still required to establish all notability. We don't simply rely on an editor's opinion that the band is important or one of the criteria is met. --neon white talk 08:09, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:GNG is also a guideline. The only policy we're dealing with here is WP:V, and the sources brought to light so far verifiably demonstrate that the group has significant connections to other notable outfits and that they were important representatives of their style. Chubbles (talk) 15:25, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete: trivial 3rd party coverage, non-notable. JamesBurns (talk) 06:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * i dont see how it fulfills the criteria in either guide. --neon white talk 05:49, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 00:05, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep per Chubbles. Band has notable members and is influential in this style of music. Tomdobb (talk) 15:20, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither statement has been verified. --neon white talk 08:02, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Singer Billy Werner is in Hot Cross, drummer Greg Drudy was a member of Interpol (band). This meets criteria six of WP:BAND.Tomdobb (talk) 14:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, regarding the original nomination, Google News does bring up some matches. Radiant chains (talk) 17:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No reliable ones. --neon white talk 08:02, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Let's see: this band's heyday was in the late 1990's, which means online references would be spotty. So has anyone bothered to look for the NYC equivalent of NME or The Rocket & see if they merited coverage? At the least, I'd hope someone has investigated whether Greg Drudy could be verified as a member of this group, which is it's strong claim to notability at the moment. (The article on Drudy lacks any citations at this writing.) -- llywrch (talk) 18:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a review from UC-Davis that comes up on a Google news search. Reg is required to view it, but it contains this quote, "Drummer Greg Drudy was a founding member of Interpol." Tomdobb (talk) 20:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.