Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sahaja Yoga International


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was Looking at all the arguments / checks myself Delete. Tawker 17:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Sahaja Yoga International
Non-notable cult, does not pass WP:CORP. Fewer than 1000 Google hits, and no references from credible sources. --NovaSTL 06:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Note: Google search for "Sahaja Yoga International": 82,800 hits. Sfacets 03:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Only if you search for any site that contains the words "Sahaja", "Yoga", and "International". When you search on the actual name of the organization, "Sahaja Yoga International", it's fewer than 1,000 . --NovaSTL 08:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Note: "Vishwa Nirmala Dharma" - 14,600 Hits.


 * Sahaja Yoga is NOT a cult --Sahajhist 17:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Regardless of what it is, is it notable? -Will Beback 07:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * According to Dr. Michael Langone, editor of Cultic Studies Journal, Sahaja Yoga is a cult, it is preoccupied with money, the group has an "us v. them" mentality, and techniques are used and encouraged to suppress doubt about the group or its members. (see the section on "Issues and Controversies).  My own concern is that many of these mis-information techniques seem to be being used on Wikipedia, as members of this group appear to be creating articles here to promote the group and its activities. --NovaSTL 23:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * So based on your one source, you brand your POV onto the organisation? Again, how does Sahaja Yoga International aim at promoting the goup? And here I was, certain that your concern was that the article didn't fit Wikipedia guidelines (which was the reason you gave when you nominated this article. Your edits show that since your account creation four days ago you have actively prevented sources from being added to the article, in particular any sources that could identify SYI as an organisation independant from Sahaja Yoga meditation. Your edits are obviously being used to push your own POV (expressed above) and aim at the removal of the article which you placed up for deletion. The fact that you do not reveal your Sockpuppeteer account name casts further doubt on your position in this matter. Sfacets 23:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we've already gone over this, but to repeat: I have no bias in this matter. I am not a sockpuppet of anyone involved in this discussion, as I have already explained here (though considering the number of pro-SYI sockpuppets and meatpuppets that have been trotted in, I actually find that charge fairly ironic). Anyone interested in reviewing my contribution history for themselves is welcome to do so, and if the closing admin has any genuine concerns, I am happy to verify my identity in private email. As for "preventing sources", that's an absurd claim, as I would actually welcome anything which would prove that SYI had independent notability.  See Talk:Sahaja Yoga International for details. In short, I'm not trying to attack SYI, I am simply trying to prevent the creation of poorly-sourced vanity articles on Wikipedia.  At this point, my recommendation is that any relevant information from the Sahaja Yoga International article be merged into the article at Sahaja Yoga, and then the SYI name can be set up as a redirect. --NovaSTL 00:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well so far you have attacked the organisation by refering to it as a Cult, by ravaging the article - removing sources attempting to prove SYI is in fact a Worldwide organisation placing your own without prior discussion (despite the long discussion mentionned in the previous edit), removing claims without waiting for forthcoming souces (so instead of using a  tag for example). All this seems to indicate bias, if not against the organisation, then at least in regards to this afd. You are altering the article to suit your interests, in this case winning this afd proposal. It shows bad faith that you would hide your Sockpuppeteer identity from the rest of us, even if your other Sockpuppet(s) were not engaged in this discussion. As for the assumed 'Meatpuppets', I'm sure many of them have contributed to articles anonymously over the years, just because they are required to create a User account to be able to have their say doesn't make their arguments (when given) less valid. Sfacets 00:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. MER-C 08:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete religioncruft. Danny Lilithborne 08:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete  Seems to be a small religious movement/cult that practises this. It fails WP:CORP and without reliable sources of information this article will forever be a conflict of interest/spam/POV magnet. The above comment by Sahajhist is testament to this. -- IslaySolomon 09:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Redirect To the above-mentioned link. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 11:19, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sahaja Yoga is NOT a cult and is merely brandeed one by memebrs who have been asked to leave or people who have not expeirinced sahaja yoga — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marathigt (talk • contribs)
 * — Possible single purpose account: Marathigt (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
 * Keep as a stub or move to Vishwa Nirmala Dharma (currently a redirect). -- The guru (and I think founder) of the organisation, Nirmala Srivastava has had significant press coverage, either keep or merge into Nirmala Srivastava article -- Paul foord 13:08, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Note the alternative name Vishwa Nirmala Dharma (currently a redirect) has "about 15,200" hits.
 * Keep or merge to Sahaja Yoga. As far as I know the practice and the organization are closely related and the term "Sahaja Yoga" (306,000 ghits) may refer to either or both. --KFP (talk | contribs) 14:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep - Sahaja Yoga practicioners are counted in their hundreds of thousands. You can go anywhere in India and people will know about it. Non-notable? It has appeared in many leading newspapers. Sahaja Yoga international differs from Sahaja Yoga in that it is a registered NGO whereas Sahaja Yoga is a form of meditation. Nirmala Srivastava has had considerable press coverage both because of the NGO side of SY as well as the spiritual/meditational. Sahaja Yoga is a registered organisation and NGO in quite a few countries. Calling a spiritual practice a cult is POV. And besides, if you consider SY a cult (as is your right) - it shouldn't be a reason for exclusion. note:I strongly suspect bias in this AFD proposal - why is User:NovaSTL, a user who signed up a day ago nominating an article for deletion? [] Sfacets 20:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Nope, not a biased nom. I'd never heard of this organization until yesterday when I was on newpage patrol, and ran across Vishwa Nirmal Prem Ashram, which appeared to be spam, so I tagged it with db-spam.  The tag was removed with a rude comment, so I proceeded to a prod, which was also removed, so the next step was AfD.  Rather than submitting just that article though, I decided to proceed to the "root" article, which is this one, which also appears (in my opinion) to be spam.  Now let me be clear that the practice of Sahaja Yoga appears notable, but the organization known as "Sahaja Yoga International" does not.  This article also appears to be a hub for multiple other non-notable entities, such as Vishwa Nirmal Prem Ashram and International Sahaja Public School, other spam articles (go read it, you'll see what I mean). These all appear to have been created in an ongoing campaign to use Wikipedia to create articles on these peripheral activities, even though they are not independently notable.  The articles should therefore either be deleted, or merged into the article about Sahaja Yoga. --NovaSTL 23:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The article is a stub, having been created just a few days ago. Editors haven't even had time to add content to it. How have you determined that it was spam? Your edits are counterproductive. Sfacets 06:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. I fail to see how a religious organisation with an attached hospital and ICSE school and with a notable founder is less notable than, say, the average parish church that gets on, or, for example, the Federation of Damanhur. Consider also the Brahma Kumaris. Unless someone can point this out, consider this a vote to keep.Hornplease 01:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The Federation of Damanhur has been the subject of two books that look to be credible sources. The Brahma Kumaris article also has an extensive bibliography. However, the SYI article has no sources except its own websites, and other non-credible sources. --NovaSTL 03:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Valid sources have been added. Sfacets 06:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep - From the comments presented here, and considering the articles already present on various other faith-based spiritual movements, I cannot detect an actual problem with having this separate Wikipedia entry, nor any separate entry pertaining to Sahaja Yoga for that matter. To enable citing sources, particulars for Wiki precedents and/or Wiki accepted definitions and criteria for ‘reputable sources of information’ and ‘credible sources’ are required as these relate to the highly personal subject of spirituality (spirituality is subjective by nature). The comment referencing ‘religioncruft’ infers unfamiliarity with the subject, and as for ‘non-notable,’ Sahaja Yoga International is well-known in many circles of society, Sahaja Yoga being unique, therefore completely differentiated from every other sort of meditation technique. Generally speaking, the society of Sahaja Yoga International is a branch of the not-for-profit grass-roots, non-hierarchical Sahaja Yoga movement carrying out many international activities such as NGOs, charitable projects, non-commercial educational and social community services, duly registered active SY societies and SY charities around the world, and significant documented medical research on the many varied and widely recognized benefits of the Sahaja Yoga technique. As such, it should not be considered for deletion. Ewarrior21 03:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Above post is the first-ever comment by, who has no other edits. --NovaSTL 03:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * NovaSTL- How many edits have you made on wikipedia in the last two days since you signed up? You should know that according to Spam an NGO-related, not-for-profit establishment doesn't qualify as spam, as you marked it. (Vishwa Nirmal Prem Ashram). According to your comments above this afd does in fact seem to be a reaction to other contributor's edits, and therefore biased. Mentions of SYI as an NGO appear frequently in media, such as the Times of India, the Indian Express, there is medical research documentation done in connection with the hospital in Mumbai... there are plenty of sources. Feel free to add htem to the article. Sfacets 04:55, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. There may be sources available, but we are not free to add them, as some users appear to be exerting ownership of the articles. -Will Beback 21:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe NovaSTL was asking for 'Valid Sources' - something that wasn't established in this case. See Talk:Sahaja YogaSfacets 03:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, that link to "Religion facts" from the University of Virginia looks like a credible source. In my opinion, it should not have been removed. --NovaSTL 08:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe that you are unaware of the recent additions to WP:CSD concerning what is defined as spam. For more information, please read:  Wikipedia Signpost/2006-10-02/More CSD.  In any case, if you believe that there are references which assert this topic's notability, by all means, please add them to the article. Without such sources, I stand by my opinion that this article does not make an adequate case for the notability of its subject, but instead is written in a self-promotional manner, and is almost certainly in violation of WP:AUTO (please note that the primary editor on the Sahaja Yoga International article is, who is obviously associated with the topic).
 * Instead of attacking me, I think that your energy would be better spent on addressing the obvious WP:AUTO problems with this article and the related self-promotional sub-articles, instead of fighting the attempts to request citations, as you have been doing in the past . For example, when someone added a fact tag, and you removed it, saying "not needed here." --NovaSTL 06:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I wasn't attacking you, I was remarking on the fact that either you are a sockpuppet or a newly signed up member, and have already placed an afd. A fact you seem to be avoiding. How is removing 1 (one!) request for citation "fighting the attempts to request citations"? As I have been doing in the past? What, with my one tag removal? The tag in question wasn't required there (in my opinion) since the sentence was self-explanatory. The removal wasn't contested. But why am I justifying my old edits to you? according to the link you posted above: "Pages that exist only to promote a company, person, product, service or group." The template can be used on pages that fit the definition". In what way do you feel an NGO project that affects hundreds of people and is well know in that part of India exists only to promote itself? Also note that it is a stub, having been created 3 days ago, so sources haven't even had the time to be included. Sfacets 06:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * First, your removal of that fact tag most definitely was contested, with the very next edit, followed by back and forth reverts, and finally the questionable statement's eventual removal. Next: My own account's status can be clearly determined by taking a moment to read my userpage.  As is stated there, the primary purpose of this account is new page patrolling, as part of which I have nominated several articles for deletion, usually without much controversy (for example, see Articles for deletion/Corki's Corner).  For other pages I have nominated for deletion, via WP:CSD, Prod, and AfD, you and anyone else are welcome to review my contribution history to see that I have not been specifically targeting this article. I am most definitely not a sockpuppet of anyone else involved in this debate, and I have no bias for or against articles about yoga.  I do, however, have a bias against poorly-sourced self-promotional articles.  If you truly believe that this subject is notable enough for its own Wikipedia article, then, per WP:V, please provide sources which prove this.  It's not about saying that something is well-known in India -- you have to provide sources which prove this.  Please review WP:CORP.  --NovaSTL 08:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment. Though there seem to be several new references that have been added to the article, it seems that most of them are either to personal/promotional websites, or are to sources that talk about the practice of Sahaja Yoga itself, but are not about the actual "SYI" organization. As such, I believe this re-emphasizes the fact that SYI is not independently notable, and that this article should be merged into the article on Sahaja Yoga. --NovaSTL 22:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have added more sources on the VND/SYI Organisation, looking up more references for Organisational status in various countries. Sfacets 03:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * sahaja yoga is NOT a cult....there are thousands of peoples who are physically, mentally, emotionally and even spritually benefited by sahaja yoga... their health is improved, their way of thinking is changed(positive changes)..so what else you want from sahaja...if you want to make money out of it..sorry to say we are non-profit orgainzation...adeshjoshi.. those who dont want to believe, follow sahaja..its ok..no arguments...but they are not supposed to talk against sahaja without any reasons... !!! adeshjoshi... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adeshjoshi (talk • contribs) 22:15, 15 October 2006
 * Note: Account's only use has been to participate in this deletion discussion
 * Please do not delete this useful piece on a movement for inner spiritual growth and liberation that has many thousands of adherents from all walks of life. This is not some barmy cult that grabs money from the unsuspecting and gullible seekers. It is a path that works and gives great joy and peaceful direction to life, and if there are those who have suffered because they were asked kindly to leave the movement, because they had done something extremely unkind or not in keeping with normal decent behaviour, want this page removed it would be a great shame and a very backward step. We accept anybody who asks for their self-realisation, and so there will always be discontented people who could not 'make it'.Very few indeed have been asked to leave or have left because they were unsatisfied. Why should this deprive others of the opportunity to experience the possibilities of self realisation? I have followed this wonderful path for 27 years and my life has been miraculously blessed, and those of my wife and children too. Kingsley Flint — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.165.175.230 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 15 October 2006
 * Note: Account's only use has been to participate in this deletion discussion
 * => Donot delete this as I know Wikipedia is a open site for giving useful information to all. This page seems to be correct and useful in all regards as far as I know. I know many of my friends and they all have benefitted from this simple meditation technique. The most important point I have noticed is that they do not charge you a single pie. What I feel personally is that the persons who are asking for deleting are those who are at least aware of Sahajyoga. It is something like this that you go to Swimming Pool and by someone's mistake if one drowns then you say close all swimming pools. They might have tried to use it for their personal needs or some ego hassles with some local Sahajayoga persons. So I feel it is just some human reaction which seems to be very natural. But Sahajyoga as a whole as i have seen is quite beneficial, so no point in delting it. Yes you can verify the facts from independent agencies. I know thay have an NGO for Destitute Women in India and one Hospital also in Mumbai. So seems to be good organization. - Rajesh — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajeshhwr (talk • contribs) 23:36, 15 October 2006
 * Note: Account's only use has been to participate in this deletion discussion
 * Donot delete this article.Sahaja yoga isthe only organization in the world through which you can get your self- realization and feel vibrations.It is widely prcaticed in many countries and lot of people are interested in it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avinash82 (talk • contribs) 02:55, 16 October 2006)
 * Note: Account's only use has been to participate in this deletion discussion
 * Keep or merge to Sahaja Yoga. It seems to me that the problems that NovaSTL has with this site are being rectified. People are adding in citations but these things take time. Primarily I would like to point out that Sahaja Yoga International is a worldwide organisation that is a registered charity hence it does not fall under the definition of a company or corporation. The practice of Sahaja Yoga gives thousands of individuals a means to connect with themselves. There are numerous cases of individuals who have practiced this form of meditation and have found improvement from conditions such as ADHD, (see link to published papers). The stabalizing benefit of Sahaja Yoga meditation is the reason that it is being offered in many prisons around the world with positive outcomes. What proof do you require if not verification from links to external sites telling you about the individual organisation activities ie the music school in India and the internation school, links to newspapers articles discussing the merits of Sahaj Yoga in reference to drug abuse recovery and also regarding studies on Sahaja Yoga meditation carried out by a well know Australian hospital? Willia 09:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * — Possible single purpose account: Willia (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
 * Do Not Delete This article should not be deleted. The alternative name "Vishwa Nirmala Dharma" has ~15,000 hits on Google and provides ample background information and evident proof that such organization exists in multiple countries and has positive impact on everyday lives of the practitioners. There is also a significant amount of press coverage around the globe which is slowly added to provide more evidence. Also note that "Sahaja Yoga International" is an official name of the organization which denotes the international nature of it and is not frequently used. If you search for "sahaja yoga meditation" on Google you get ~28,000 hits. So the argument is of technical nature and has no basis. If you search for "International Business Machines" which is the full name for IBM, you will get 48 million hits versus 348 for IBM because the abbreviated name is used much more frequently. Denism 18:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * — Possible single purpose account: Denism (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
 * To believe and claim that Sahaja yoga is a cult is the same like to believe all the rest of religious chuches and organizations are all fake cults.Despite that SY is helpfull for thousands more than the few ex-practicioners needed an anger managment because they didn't felt SY inside. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 05:18 16 October 2006 (talk • contribs) Georgi svet
 * — Possible single purpose account: Georgi svet (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
 * DO NOT DELETE Sahaja Yoga is a teaching of Her Holiness Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi based on the ancient knowledge of the traditional Indian yoga which is described in the Vedas and Upanishads. The new in Sahaja Yoga is the awakening of the energy Kundalini on mass level. The word yoga is a Sanskrit word and means union or connection. Yoga is the union of our individual energy Kundalini with the all-pervading energy of the Universe - Paramachaytaniya. For many thousands of years spiritual seekers were trying to raise this energy but only a few could achieve it. The unique contribution of H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi is that She could help the spiritual seekers in their quest for truth and awaken some strings of their Kundalini. Now a days thousands of people from all over the world are practicing Sahaja Yoga meditation and experience on daily bases it's tremendous benefits. Sahaja Yoga is one of the most practical systems of self-knowledge and self-improvement. That's why it is funny, even pity if some people try to present it as a cult. The only way to understand where is the truth is to experience it. Please visit [ http://www.sahajayoga.org] and get your self-realization online. E blagoeva 16:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * — Possible single purpose account: E blagoeva (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
 * PLEASE DO NOT DELETE. Before doing Sahaja Yoga, I too was of the belief that many a cults and faiths are surrounding the humanity and none of them have anything inside. This assumption kept me away from Sahaja Yoga for a long time...until one day I said to myself, "Why Don't I try it?". And when I tried it, I felt the cool breeze in no time and effortlessly achieved the thoughtless aware state. 1. This state has been well defined in different words in different holy scriptures of ancient religions of the world.  2. This is a distinct experience and NOT a matter of faith. 3. The continued practice of Sahaja Yoga has actually, NOT Assumptiously, brought much improvement in my health and personality. 4. As I have seen, almost 80% of people can have experience of this kind in first sitting itself. 5. No money is ever charged for doing Sahaja Yoga. 6. It is voluntary. 7. There is no membership of Sahaja Yoga. 8. It has high potential benefit for the humanity as a whole. 9. No loss of any kind can be envisaged for anyone trying or doing it. 10. No real or potential harm is caused to society. I request all the dear brothers and sisters of the world not to discard Sahaja Yoga as a cult. It is a happening thing...not just faith. Thank You Delpraveen 17:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * — Possible single purpose account: Delpraveen (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
 * Keep Apart from the controversial areas, I believe Sahaja Yoga has an organizational aspect which deals with the facilitation of needs of yogis. VND (Vishwa Nirmala Dharma) functions on national levels, but for international projects, I have seen the increasing use of Sahaja Yoga International as a term. There are many projects in joint collaboration with non-affiliated entities having presence in multiple countries which has prompted the use of this term (SYI).havanhelper
 * — Possible single purpose account: Ruthvickd (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.


 * The Argument for afd was tat the article didn't pass WP:CORP. According to WP:Corp,
 * "A club, society, or organization is notable if it meets any of the following criteria:


 * 1. The club, society, or organization has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the club, society, or organization itself.
 * This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, television documentaries, and published reports by consumer watchdog organizations6 except for the following:
 * Media reprints of press releases, other publications where the club or organization talks about itself, and advertising for the club, society, or organization. 1
 * Works carrying merely trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that simply announce forthcoming club meetings or the publications of telephone numbers and addresses in directories."


 * Sahaja Yoga international
 * IS Subject of non-trivial published works - see article for sources.
 * Sfacets 03:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Sahaja yoga is practised in hundreds of countries...there are lots of peoples who have been benefited from sahaja yoga..it is the method of awakening our own motherly energy and knowing ourself..it is free and no one is bound to practise forever..one can come and if he/she doesn't likes then can leave..Adesh Joshi 02:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * — Possible single purpose account: Adeshjoshi (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.


 * Sahaja Yoga is not a cult. It is rather a method that makes people more true to their own religion, as it awakens the kundalini energy inside them, and thus, gives them Self Realisation, therefore bringing them closer to their Self, their roots, the truth inside them. Shaja Yoga, and its recent name Vishwa Nirmala Dharma is known and practised in almost 100 countries at present. For people who are reading this and have not heard about it, try to explore a little bit around, you'll find it in your city, for sure! You can check our official site: www.sahajayoga.org, and you can find there the adresses of most of the Sahaja Yoga centres around the globe. Sahaja Yoga, through its practice, offers the individual relief not only from common diseases, but also from psichosomatic diseases, field in which the alopathic medicine is not effective. The most spread disease that attacks more or less each and evry individual nowadays is STRESS! Sahaja Yoga is very effective in combatting stress. These effects have been scientifically proven through medical tests on practicants, such as brain scans, galvanic skin resistence, etc. I have personally participated to some of them. In CBD Belapur, New Bombay, India there is a Health and Research Centre in which patients are treated for any disease only through Sahaj techniques by using the beneficial effects of the Kundalini energy. In India Sahaja Yoga is attested as alternative medicine by the government. Also I am a little bit amazed by the persistence and perseverence with which some people use their wrong, truncated and out dated information to denigrate Sahaja Yoga. If one checks theis site, there is no name of the authors there. In their own words, they are only about 25 ex-members of the group. The Sahaja Yoga organisation numbers many thousand yogis only in a country like India, but it is present in almost 100 countries around the world. In this way, I am very sorry, but this ex-members group constitutes a petty minority. In Sahaja Yoga people are absolutely free to come and to go whenever they wish so. We are conducting free entrabce programs for new-comers and free means not only free of cost, but the netrance is absolutely free, irrespective of the religion, cast, colour of skin, gender, social status, etc, there is no point for any kind of discrimination. In the same way, nobody is stopped from leaving the organisation whenever and however he wants. There have been very few occasions of expellation from the organisation, and they were on serious grounds of either financial fraud, or violence, or sexual misconduct. And they were decided by Shri Mataji herself after according the culprits several occasions of improving their behaviour. As regarding marriages in Sahaja Yoga, I am myself a person married by Shri Mataji in the Sahaj custom, and I can say that not only I was never forced to do so, but I am very happy of the decission taken. I know many people in Sahaj Yoga for many years who opted for not marrying in this way and nobody ever forced them to do it or opposed to the decission they have taken. Everybody is free to choose the way he or she wants to marry. Moreover, maybe only 10% of the people who are filling the marriage forms are finally married. It is our desire to have a life partner that shares the same beliefs that prompts us to request for this kind of matching and not anybody forcing us. Also the percentage of divorces is very low in such marriages. Also I have two children and I can say from my own experience that nobody evr put pressure on me to send them to the Sahaj School in Dharamshala and I am not doing it either. There are several families like mine, of Sahaj Yogis who are not sending the children to the school without having any trouble at all because of that. Around the world there are thousands of yogis and there must be tens of thousand of school going Sahaj children, but presently there are only two Sahaj schools. So, it would be practically impossible to accomodate them all. People must have wrongly understood the initial messages of Shri Mataji, from the time when this school had just started and She was encouraging Sahaja Yogis to send their children to this institution. In fact the whole image that some people give about Shri Mataji is very weird to me. She has never been bossy or ordering anybody. Like a real mother She only advises people. And everybody, on any level of Sahaj Yoga practice, is absolutely free to follow or NOT in his own life. She exerts absolutely NO control NOR takes any decission in anybody's life!!! She has filled our lives with so mach joy and happiness, with so much fulfillment, without ever asking for anything in exchange! The money matters of Sahaja Yoga are so transparent that every cent is dully accounted for. Yes, we are contributing for the advancement of this organisation, because we want that this awareness reaches as many people as possible, so that they can also enjoy the benefits of it. We can give as uch as we want, nobody is asking for it, and we do it for financing the diverse projects that this organisation has undertaken. The money have been invested in properties in different countries, that are not used by Shri Mataji, She hardly lives in those houses(maybe one week a year when She visits the respective country), but they are donated for the use of Sahaja Yogis. Sahaja Yoga practicants live there throughout the year. Also there are some social projects. like helping the destitude women and children in India, that are getting nominally financed. Everybody is giving as much as he wants and feels responsible for and every cent is well accounted for, with name and date dully noted. Also nobody is forced to do so if he does not want to. He can still come and attend te programs, even if he does not pay, and there are many doing it! So I feel Shaja Yoga is verily a non-profit organisation that has transformed the lifes of milions of people, including those who are no more its members, and therefore deserves a mention in Wikipedia! User:Cristina Matache 11:55am 17.10.2006--61.14.15.65 06:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * — Possible single purpose account: 61.14.15.65 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.


 * Stubbify, organisation is official body of the movement, keep information specific to the organisation here, as an internet based encyclopedia there is value in keeping a short article specific to the organisation. Move any material not already at Sahaja Yoga to that article, have copyedited to do this. Paul foord 13:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Erm, are you aware that you already weighed in on this discussion, on 14 October? I recommend keeping your comments in the same location to avoid confusion. --NovaSTL 17:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Commentary
Comment This discussion is not about the notability of Sahaja Yoga, If you have been directed here by someone else, please be aware that this discussion is not a vote, and is not about the question of whether or not the practice of Sahaja Yoga is notable. There is already an article on Wikipedia about Sahaja Yoga, and it is not in danger. The reason for this discussion is about whether there should be a separate secondary article about the organization known as Sahaja Yoga International. In order for there to be a second article about this subject, it needs to be proven that the organization known as SYI has independent fame as a company. If not, it is more appropriate to merge information about SYI into the already existing article about Sahaja Yoga. Please limit comments to this topic. --NovaSTL 19:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete or Merge with Sahaja Yoga. Article fails WP:CORP but content is worth moving to Sahaja Yoga, and expanding on criticisms to comply with WP:NPOV. And all the single-purpose accounts created to engage in the debate here should be counted as one voice. -Amatulic 21:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.