Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sailor sandwich


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Sam Walton (talk) 08:23, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Sailor sandwich

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Non-notable sandwich lacking non-trivial support. It looks good, however; a brief mention here and there and listing of the popular sandwich on a menu hardly supports notability. red dogsix (talk) 20:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep -- Ample Non-trivial reliably sourced support for notability already provided on original edit and talk page. What is the standard for establishing notability of a regional cuisine? Multiple major regional publications (Style weekly and Richmond Times Dispatch) state that in RVA the sailor sandwich is "ubiquitous" ... and multiple mentions by notable author Patricia Cornwell and Notable chef Guy Fieri establish that it is a "known" dish in many Richmond restaurants. Peace, MPS (talk) 22:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. North America1000 23:49, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Virginia-related deletion discussions. North America1000 23:49, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete Local variant on the sandwich, can be included there. A lot of sources fail on WP:RS The Banner talk 18:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Please specify which sources fail? And how many RS do you need? If there are three RS is that enough? Also, I just want to be clear -- are you arguing that all "Local variants" of a sandwich (e.g. St. Louis's Gerber sandwich, Springfield's Horseshoe sandwich, Louisville's Hot Brown, Chicago's Italian beef, Minneapolis' Jucy Lucy, and St. Louis's St. Paul sandwich) should all be deleted and content merged to the sandwich article? Peace, MPS (talk) 20:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * From what is left: all of them. Please read WP:RS and see that what we need are independent (so not source 1), relevant (exit the passing mentions in the other four), reliable sources The Banner talk 21:51, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Source by source:
 * Times Dispatch: reliable, journalistic source; significant coverage
 * Style Weekly: questionable source; passing mention that does not create a presumption of notability (GNG), but does help illustrate the sandwich's ubiquity and significance in the culture that produced it
 * Cornwell novels: not reliable for the purpose of documenting the dish itself, but reliable as primary sources for documenting that these books do in fact contain the phrase "sailor sandwich". Ultimately not really even worth including in the article (see WP:IPCEXAMPLES) except.
 * Fieri guide: questionable source; passing mention that does not satisfy GNG, but does identify the sandwich as a significant part of local cuisine
 * Only the Times Dispatch article meets RS and GNG, with the SW and Fieri sources adding mild support of notability, but that in itself is enough to warrant keeping the article. Ibadibam (talk) 23:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the run-down on sources. re: Cornwell novels, it is of note that some of Cornwell's Scarpetta series are set in Richmond and the RTD source mentions that some people who read Richmond-based Cornwell novels are confused as to what a sailor sandwich is. re: Style Weekly, it has won many Virginia Press Association awards   .  Peace, Love, and Tasty Sandwiches, MPS (talk) 23:35, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - Passes GNG, and distinct enough that it can't smoothly be merged into reuben or sausage sandwich, though in some ways it is a variation on both. Ibadibam (talk) 20:20, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Redirect to List of sandwiches. Plenty of passing mentions, but only the Times Dispatch is significant. I'm somewhat torn. Another decent source and I would have voted keep, and I wouldn't be surprised if a good source does pop up in the future. Doctorhawkes (talk) 23:46, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * List of sandwiches only includes notable sandwiches, so if this doesn't have its own article, it can't go on the list. Any other possible merges or redirects? Ibadibam (talk) 23:50, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Fair point. Richmond,_Virginia, I guess.Doctorhawkes (talk) 00:32, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That actually is not a bad option. Ibadibam (talk) 19:24, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * y'all, here is another "decent source" for you --> Richmond Magazine... This is the glossy regional magazine with 200,000 readers / paid subscribers "Iconic Eats -- The Sailor Sandwich at Chiocca’s  -- People may argue over which establishment serves the best sailor sandwich in Richmond, but Chiocca’s and its dive-y atmosphere has to win. The Sailor, a pile of pastrami topped with grilled knockwurst, melted Swiss and deli mustard on rye, is a carnivore’s dream. Chiocca’s is a laconic old-school establishment that likes to take its time, but the wait is definitely worth it" .. Peace, MPS (talk) 23:57, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, just found this 2005 Associated Press/Boston.com article --> http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2005/08/03/cooking_up_a_status_symbol/ Cooking up a status symbol 'Foodies' boost sales of high-end kitchens "In years past, when Jay Garner of Richmond, Va., prepared one of his family's signature meals -- the sailor sandwich, a grilled combination of pastrami, knockwurst and Swiss cheese on mustard-laden rye bread -- he could, at best, cook two in a frying pan." Peace and Knockwurst, MPS (talk) 00:05, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, here is the The News Virginian article documenting Fieri's 2007 visit to Dot's "Indeed, the pair spent about an hour creating a sailor sandwich and the Chicken MacArthur, often making unairable jokes and laughing like old college buddies." — Preceding unsigned comment added by MPS (talk • contribs) 00:23, 2 July 2015‎
 * Independent sourcing? I don't think so... The Banner talk</i> 00:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I noticed you've described both the Times Dispatch and the News Virginian as not being independent. How would you define independent in this context? Ibadibam (talk) 02:52, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that The Banner probably means that they're local sources and as such, are depreciated since they're more likely to cover local things. I don't entirely agree with that, to be honest, but I know that this is a common issue at AfD. On a side note, one of VCU's student-run news programs has covered it as well. (Note: this news outlet does undergo some form of editorial oversight since it's run by a VCU professor.) I'll see if I can find some non-local coverage, though. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)  05:44, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * No, far more because the given citation reads more or less like: I was there, the owners knew who I was and what I do for a living, they made a great effort, I had fun and then wrote this article. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 07:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * If the restaurant owner is the primary source and the newspaper reporter is the secondary source, why is independence an issue? It's not as if the reporter has anything to gain from lying about or promoting the existence of a sandwich. Also, did you not see the Associated Press story about the foodie who upgraded his kitchen so he could cook more sailor sandwiches The reporter there is also quite independent of the man cooking sandwiches.  Peace and Melted Swiss, MPS (talk) 13:39, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * A journalist, working under a deadline on a to-be-forgotten fluff piece, will take any shortcut available to produce the copy. Many local business reviews and blurbs are written by the business owners themselves and reprinted in newspapers and magazines with minimal revision. So we should always keep that in mind when looking at food and lifestyle journalism as possible sources. The Banner is right that the pieces we're talking about aren't particularly hard-hitting journalism, but they appear to have at least consulted multiple parties. I wonder whether we can reasonably expect to find academic-level sources for every food topic, and whether we'd actually be able to keep many of our articles about various dishes, were we to apply the same rigor that we use for, say, history or engineering topics. Perhaps that's an argument to let this article stand; perhaps it's an argument to embark on a broader clean-up campaign of food articles. Ibadibam (talk) 19:24, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I appreciate everyone's thoughtful comments. I think Ibadibam raises a great point when he asks what level of rigor we can expect when it comes to sourcing food articles. If I have a newspaper article saying "Sandwich X is ubiquitous in the region" and then I post sandwich X stories from every major newspaper in that region, menus from well-known restaurants in the region that list ingredients, recipes from published cookbooks that also list ingredients, and then quote a nationally recognized television food personality, a nationally recognized novelist, a professional menu planner, and a non-regional associated press newspaper article about foodies mentioning sandwich X, is that enough? or are we holding out for someone's doctoral thesis on sandwiches? What reliable sources establish the French dip? Peace and Pastrami, MPS (talk) 21:02, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. Easily passes both the spirit and the letter of WP:GNG, with the Times-Dispatch and VCU Insight articles doing the bulk of the heavy lifting, and the other refs providing additional verifiability and details. The argument that an article is not 'independent' due to it being published in the same city as its subject is not supported by the actual definition of independence found at GNG - and neither of the two articles I've linked here are in any way the "buddy-buddy" type of article The Banner is alluding to above. Full disclosure, I'd never heard of this sandwich before seeing it added to the List of sandwiches, but it is now my life's mission to try one after having now read about it. Antepenultimate (talk) 01:23, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JAaron95  Talk  13:33, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. Sufficient evidence to verify this as a notable aspect of local Richmond culture, and there's no basis to exclude something like that solely on the ground that it's local.  --Arxiloxos (talk) 20:20, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Weak keep based on the sourcing. It's a bit heavy though, pardon the pun. Bearian (talk) 20:52, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That's why we call it weak keep pedia. (I'll pardon your pun if you'll pardon mine.) Ibadibam (talk) 22:52, 10 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.