Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Saint Thomas Anglicans


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.  Sandstein  07:35, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Saint Thomas Anglicans

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There is no such separate ethnic group known as “St. Thomas Anglicans”. The article begins by expressing these are St. Thomas Christians who are members of the Anglican Churches (specifically the church of South India). Members of an ethnic group that are members of other churches are not a separate ethnic group but the same people that have different church affiliations. I would recommend adding aspects of this article to the Saint Thomas Christians Wikipedia page and adding Church of South India to the list of churches St. Thomas Christians are apart of with citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomast48 (talk • contribs) 02:58, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Relisting comment: This discussion never made it on to the logs, so I'm going to add it to today's log Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Iffy★Chat -- 08:55, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Hello Wgolf, I see that you a senior editor with over 100,000 edits to your credit and I solicit your guidance and advice. You had reviewed article 'Saint Thomas Anglicans' a month ago and I believe you approved it, as I see a blue tick mark in the notification that I received for the same. I created the 'Saint Thomas Anglicans' page and took a great care to ensure that is well sourced and modeled it after the existing pages for several other Indian (ethno)religious groups. Now another user has nominated 'Saint Thomas Anglicans' for deletion, to which I strongly object. I would be state my objections in this page, in due course, but I do not want any further step to be taken till the discussion is closed. I request you to participate in the discussion as an impartial moderator. Thank you. --Tharian7 (talk) 06:59, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep: There are numerous religious, ethnic and ethno-religious groups in India (too difficult to count); a distinctive feature enriching Indian demographics. Lots of them profess the same religion and belong to the same subsect and have a shared history, yet maintain separate temples, mosques and churches, while visiting others' too. Historians would testify that this phenomenon is the result of a gradual evolution, progression and synthesis in Indian society, since ancient times. From the moment a parent group split, the child groups have had a separate and independent existence and history. So is St. Thomas Christians, who belong to several ecclesiastical traditions. The history of their divisions is detailed in the 'St. Thomas Christian' page. As with St. Thomas Anglicans, their separate existence within the Anglican fold starts in 1836, after the synod of Mavelikara. Chronologically, this was the second split in the St. Thomas Christian community after the first major split into Catholic and Syriac Orthodox traditions. The later history of Saint Thomas Anglicans, is detailed in the Wikipedia page having the same title with ample supporting references. There are numerous related religious, ethnic, ethno-religious, caste and sub-caste Indian groups for which dedicated Wikipedia pages already exists. Mangalorean Catholics, Karwari Catholics and Goan Catholics descend from the same Konkani people, speak the same Konkani language, belong to the same Latin rite Catholic Church and yet each of them have dedicated, separate Wikipedia pages, each using the infobox ethnic group. We also have Mangalorean Protestants who are related to the above groups and members of the Church of South India, having a separate wiki page using the Infobox ethnic group. Strictly speaking none of these are separate ethnic/caste groups that existed for millennia together; each group evolved in the last few centuries from the same Konkani stock in south western India, due to Portuguese and British influence. Similarly there are several other related Indian Christian and other groups of the same descend, for whom there are dedicated Wiki pages, each using the infobox ethnic group. Coming back St. Thomas Christians, I would like to point out there are separate dedicated pages for Syro-Malabar Catholic Church and Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, whose members by and large descent from the same original stock and follow closely related Eastern Catholic rites. However it is acknowledged that the infobox is 'Christian denomination', in this case. Another example I wish to point out is that of Pancha-Gauda Brahmins. Each of these related Brahmin groups (Saraswat Brahmin, Gauda Brahmins, Goud Saraswat Brahmin, Kanyakubja Brahmin, Maithil Brahmin, Utkala Brahmin) have dedicated Wiki pages. Some use the infobox for Ethnic Group, some for Caste and some others does not use any. Saint Thomas Anglicans are Saint Thomas Christians in Anglican tradition. The page Saint Thomas Anglicans is properly referenced and contains information about the relations of British Anglicans with the Malankara Church (Oriental Orthodox) and the later history of Saint Thomas Anglicans, which is mentioned no where else. The page has also been reviewed by a senior editor Wgolf. Moreover, using the wrong infobox, is no reason to delete a page; it can be replaced with the correct one and may be removed too, as there are several Wiki pages that do not have an infobox. --Tharian7 (talk) 10:09, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Hello, I actually think this is a great article with fantastic content but I do not think “St. Thomas Anglicans” constitute as a separate ethnic group. Within the St. Thomas Christians you have Syrian Catholics and Syrian Orthodox but they still constitute as St. Thomas Christians, not two separate ethnic groups (it should be noted that these two groups after separating in the 17th century, created distinct cultures amongst themselves but they are still considered apart of the larger St. Thomas Christian tradition). In this same way, I feel that Syrian Anglicans, like Syrian Catholics and Syrian Orthodox, are not a separate ethnic group but instead apart of the St. Thomas Christian/Syrian Christians of Kerala ethnic group. By creating a separate wiki page I feel that they are being separated from the actual culture that they are apart of it. Instead of doing so, perhaps content from this page should be added to the main St. Thomas Christians wiki page. The issue is that pages such as Syro Malabar Catholic, Syro Malankara Catholic, etc are actually Churches, St. Thomas Anglicans are not a separate church nor ethnic group but instead St. Thomas Christians who have membership in Anglican Churches, again why I feel this page should be deleted and added to the main St. Thomas Christians wiki page. Using this same argument pages could be created for “St. Thomas Catholics” and “St. Thomas Orthodox” but they don’t exist for the reason that they are not separate groups but instead one ethnic group apart of the same tradition that simply have memebership in different churches. Thomast48 (talk)
 * I really do not understand how the contents of 'Saint Thomas Anglicans' page projects them as a separate ethnic group, distinct from the larger St. Thomas Christian community. There isn't even one sentence or word in the article that would explicitly or implicitly, lead any reader to that conclusion. Perhaps, someone who just glances at the infobox, without reading content would. With respect to that, I have already given several examples, where the Infobox for ethnic group was used in Wikipedia, while the content wasn't just about ethnicity but also religion, sub-sect, denomination, vernacular etc. If more examples are needed, those could be easily cited for many religious, ethnic and language groups. In my previous post, it was acknowledged that the pages for the closely related Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara Catholic denominations use the infobox for Christian denomination. Those pages are dedicated to explain the separate histories, evolution and existence of those groups of Saint Thomas Christians, who split from their parent group and joined each of those denominations. Along with that the ecclesiology of those denominations are also added, just as in the 'Saint Thomas Anglicans' page. The same is true about the Malankara Orthodox group and it is true that a 'Saint Thomas Catholic' page or a 'Saint Thomas Orthodox' page would be redundant and uncalled for, as their respective individual denominational pages would serve the same purpose. It is not right and proper to merge the contents of 'Saint Thomas Anglicans' with that of the 'Saint Thomas Christian' page. The Saint Thomas Christian page is about the Saint Thomas Christian community as a whole and is not dedicated to a single subgroup or denomination. Each subgroup including Saint Thomas Anglicans are briefly mentioned in it. It has been like that for years together, with links to the respective individual pages for each subgroup or their Churches, for anyone who wants to know their detailed separate history, existence, ecclesiology, denominational family etc. The detailed history of Saint Thomas Anglicans or Syrian Anglicans isn't mentioned any where else; hence a separate dedicated page is necessary and warranted. Perhaps one valid scenario where-in ethnic distinctives could be attributed to Saint Thomas Anglicans, would be in the context of the global Anglican Communion which has peoples of several ethnicities and languages, in its many provinces. For example Church of South India, has in it, people from various ethnic and linguistic backgrounds like Mangalorean Protestants, Telugu Christians etc. just like Marathi Anglicans and Anglican Bengali Christians of the Church of North India. All individual Wiki pages dedicated to these groups use the infobox ethnic group, as with Mangalorean Catholics, Karwari Catholics and Goan Catholics who are all Latin rite Catholics of Konkani descent. Likewise, Saint Thomas Anglicans are Anglicans of Saint Thomas Christian descent. However the purpose of using the infobox ethnic group was not to hightlight this or to project Saint Thomas Anglicans as an ethnic group distinct from Saint Thomas Christians; that should be immediately apparent to any one who reads the content. The article merely details the origin and history of Anglican Syrian Christians, as one of the many groups that splintered out of the original Saint Thomas Christian community. The infobox ethnic group was used, only because it is used widely in Wikipedia in similar articles. --Tharian7 (talk) 10:13, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
 * An impartial senior editor has to arbitrate Articles for deletion/Saint Thomas Anglicans. Could you drop by, please? --Tharian7 (talk) 10:27, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Reasons for the recommendation to keep
 * Very well sourced article with ample 3rd party references.
 * Contains detailed history of the association of the Malankara Church in India with British Anglicans, mentioned no where else.
 * Contains details abut the origin, evolution and existence of Anglican Syrian Christians, mentioned no where else.
 * Anglicanism is distinct from other denominations of St. Thomas Christians. Individual Wiki pages exists for each of those denominations, detailing the separate and distinct later histories of St.Thomas Christians who joined them.
 * St Thomas Anglicans distinct from other Anglicans in India like Mangalorean Protestants and Marathi Anglicans, discussed in detail in my above posts.
 * The contents of 'Saint Thomas Anglicans' should not be merged that of the 'Saint Thomas Christian' page. The Saint Thomas Christian page is about the Saint Thomas Christian community as a whole and is not dedicated to a single subgroup or denomination.
 * If the infobox ethnic group is unsuitable for this page, it could be changed. I have cited many examples in my previous detailed posts where the same infobox was used in similar articles like Irish Catholics. Using the wrong infobox is no reason to delete an article.
 * Footnote: The Nominator for deletion himself testifies above, on 15 June 2019 that "this is a great article with fantastic content".  --Tharian7 (talk) 07:21, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * It is a disgrace and irony that I, who is very much in for keeping this article has to persuade the Nominator on this; but it looks like you have not completed the 3rd step of nomination, in a week. If you want to press on with your nomination, check Articles for deletion and notify users who monitor AfD discussions.--Tharian7 (talk) 09:50, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi friend, I do stand by my opinion that this is a great article but as I have stated I believe that the content belongs in the main St. Thomas Christians article. My reason again is simply because separate pages do not exist such as “St. Thomas Orthodox” and “St.Thoams Catholics” but instead content relating to St. Thomas Christians who became Catholics and or Orthodox simply remains on the main article because they are not separate groups/communities/identities/etc even tho they have some distinct features, I feel that this is the same for St. Thomas Christians who became Anglican. I have not responded because I have already established my position on this and I understand yours, it is simply a difference of opinion on the basis for the article itself. I’ve simply been waiting for an admin to respond.  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep. The nomination makes no sense to me. The article makes no claim that STAs are an ethnic group though this seems to be what bothers the nominator. It describes, thoroughly, their evolution as a religious community. This is one of the best-written articles I’ve seen come to AfD. It’s well-researched and well-sourced. The fact that one editor thinks it ought to be merged does not seem to be good grounds for bringing it here.  This should be discussed on the talk page.  I see @Tharian7 appears to have deleted his account and I hope this is not a sign that a new editor has become frustrated and given up after all the work they’ve put into developing this article. Mccapra (talk) 10:49, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge - to Saint Thomas Christians. No reason to lose the content.  Cheerio042 (talk) 19:49, 4 July 2019 (UTC)  Striking blocked sock Britishfinance (talk) 10:51, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep As you can see, the Saint Thomas Christians page is about the community as a whole, with each phase in their history and ensuing denomination(s) mentioned briefly, along with the British phase and Saint Thomas Anglicans. Any further addition of contents from Saint Thomas Anglicans page is not advisable as it would tip the balance.--Tharian7 (talk) 05:15, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete/merge This article seems like synthesis to me; it discusses the intersection of two topics but does not establish notability of this independently. Reviewing the sources I do not see a single one that refers to the phrase "Saint Thomas Anglican". Reywas92Talk 21:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
 * calls them Anglican Thomas Christians. You need to do more than scan things with a phrase matcher.  Others seem to call them "Syrian Anglicans", with quotation marks in some cases.  Uncle G (talk) 22:12, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep No reason given for deletion. Any suggestions for merging or rearranging material should take place on the article's talk page. Thincat (talk) 12:41, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep - this is a valid, well-sourced article about a religious minority. Bearian (talk) 16:45, 8 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.