Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Salvation Air Force


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy delete as copyvio from this page. &mdash; RHaworth 13:30, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Salvation Air Force

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Ironically I was going to add sources to this article as Larry Norman (my first pick) is well-sourced. So i started looking fo sources, then any sources and found only a mention in an article about Norman. The band leader is still active and may be worthy of an article but i simply couldn't find anything about the band which is astounding for how many years they played. Haley 02:09, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:48, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Keep. The article seems to meet WP:BAND 5. I added one citation confirming the band was signed to Myrrh Records. Argolin (talk) 23:51, 30 March 2011 (UTC)  Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:39, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
 * Hi Argolin, thank you for finding that link. It only shows one album listed so my concern is the same, for a group that has been active for nearly three decades there is still a lack of reliable sources.Haley 00:11, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep - Meet WP:BAND. Released an album in 1977 for Myrrh records. Entry in Encyclopaedia of Contemporary Christian Music. Was one of the most prominent representatives of a Christian rock in Vancouver, BC. Several North American tours. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:38, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: They were formed in the early 1970s and ceased to exist as SAF in the late 1980s, but performed as Michael Leon Gossett band. From the article "SAF recorded a few more tracks in the summer of 1980 but Donnie determined it was time to formerly end the band although the studio partnership continued till 1984." Their work in the 2000s was again primarily local and received very little national or international coverage. Article should be pared-back but not deleted. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:42, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you following me here has nothing to do with your deleting sourced content off several articles or trying to delete a redirect, in any case the timing is still interesting. Like I stated, I looked for sources because I wanted to add them to the article. So far I have found next to nothing and searching for "Michael Leon Gossett band" has also turned up nothing. I don't understand what point in WP:BAND this could meet? If we can't verify anything but one album licensed then what is there?Haley 15:07, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually it does have to do with finding out what other ways you've inserted your opinion into Wikipedia much like the way you inserted Lonnie Frisbee into two articles that were completely unrelated to the subject (Maranatha! Music and Christian music festival). However, I have also watched the SAF article since October 2006. I was away on the weekend when you added the request for deletion but would have seen it eventually this week.
 * I have no doubt you wouldn't find anything on the internet about the MLG band since they were around in the early 80s before the Internet really took off. Does this mean that they were not a prominent Christian band in Vancouver because of this? What about Noah's Nook? That was a prominent venue from 1980 until 1989. Only one entry on the Internet for that. They have coverage in the Encyclopaedia of Contemporary Christian Music as well and had national tours and so clearly meet WP:BAND.
 * Granted the article needs to be copy-edited since it's too large for the prominence of the band. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Apologies for assuming your timing was directed at my editing. As to Lonnie - I thought I had explained all this but will try to do it again. In short, Lonnie converted those musicians as well as the vast majority of all the hippies in the early years of Calvary. Lonnie help dictate how the services ran and that music, the language of the youth culture, was predominant in the services and was used to praise and worship. It was the House of Miracles chain of coffee houses - whose success was due to Lonnie's work at recruiting and converting more hippies that populated and help structure these communes. The same communes who were then setting up outreach Christian rock concerts, the first of their kind, with Lonnie's guidance. There very well would have been no huge growth in Calvary and by extension the House of Miracles and the hippie musicians who formed the first Christian rock bands who then became Maranatha Music. Chuck Smith was a businessman, Lonnie was pure evangelism, he never got paid for his work. Haley 03:30, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Lonnie had nothing to do with the founding of the label. Period. End of story. It would be like suggesting the Timothy Leary be listed as a reference to any musician who experimented with LSD. The label formed because one of the members of one of those bands asked Chuck for some money to record some music. Out of that request came the first Maranatha! album and Children of the Day's Come to the Waters.


 * Who posted the above comment?
 * I'm pretty sure it was Walter Görlitz. We sharply disagree on some history but I will let the sources speak for themselves and really it has little to do with this article.Haley 09:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. Looking at the band's discography, I'm surprised that Library and Archives Canada had only one entry (worldcat.org had the same entry with OCLC 24021592 here ).  However, I shouldn't be all that surprised as finding on-line sources for bands 30+ years ago is difficult.  With that said, "reliable sources" per User Haley I guess you mean WP:RS?  This guideline says nothing about sources having to be on-line to meet it.  I still maintain that this article meets WP:BAND.  I believe this article is weak in meeting WP:BLPSOURCES.  Someone with access to this off-line source:  Encyclopaedia of Contemporary Christian Music should provide inline citations for the article as opposed to listing it as "Further reading".  Argolin (talk) 01:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh my!!! The WP:COPYVIO pointed out by Walter Görlitz 01:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC) shines a completely different light on the article. Now I know why there were calls to pare back the article.  Can I ask contributors to this discussion to help me out a little bit?  If you a referring to a wikipedia guideline/policy/ etc please say so and link to it.  Per Haley above to what Calvary are you referring?  a place, a band, a wikipedia guideline, a thing, a New Testament reference?  I'm not being impolite, just trying to keep up with the discussion.  Argolin (talk) 06:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry Argolin, Walter Görlitz and I disagree on several other articles but I have plenty of sources to back up the content I was adding. I accused him of following me here which I regret and will try to avoid from now on. Calvary Chapel is one of the articles we were referring to. Haley 09:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment - Much of the content of the article is condensed, or refactored from http://www.donniegossett.com/SAF/Bio.html So as I said, the article needs to be copy-edited, likely because of copy-vio issues now that I found the source. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If the only available sources are his own website and one reference that an album was licensed, that would seem to be quite a reach. I found nothing in the books, scholar or news archives either. Those can go back as much as a hundreds years, the 1970s and 1980s should at least pop somewhere if sources were there. Based on the sources all we can confirm is that they existed and had one album. If you can find a lot more sources then great, otherwise I don't see it being kept without them. Haley 03:30, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * They are listed in Encyclopedia of Contemporary Christian Music. They have a full column or half of a page. Page 788. They are also one of the most prominent representatives of a Christian rock in Vancouver, BC from the late 1970s. They also were on several North American tours. Stop pushing your minor issues. Salient points from the entry follow:
 * Salvation Air Force was a Christian pop duo formed in 1973 during the heyday of the Jesus movement. Although they played at Billy Graham crusades and even did a tour in South Vietnam, they did not get around to recording for five years. The group consisted of two brothers who were sons of the evangelist Don Gossett ... The 1978 album features assistance from a number of well-known Christian musicians, including Sandra Crouch, Tom Howard, Larry Norman, Al Perkins, and Randy Stonehill. Of even greater interest to Jesus music fans, however, is the presence of Dana Angle and Bruce Herring, both of The Way, who had been MIA for a few years (Alex MacDougall, drummer for The Way, Daniel Amos, and The Richie Furay Band makes a showing as well). With all this firepower, the album itself comes off a bit muted, probably (in the opinion of Jesus Music) because Myrrh Records was in a mellow doldrums at the time. So, Jesus Music reports, “most of the album is innocuous soft rock with a light jazz touch ... only ‘Complete and Alive’ has any real crunch to it.” Of historical interest, however, is a complete version of Larry Norman’s “If God Is My Father,” which had only appeared in a truncated version on Norman’s own In Another Land. The Gossetts actually took a rough mix of the track that Norman had recorded (but not used) for So Long Ago the Garden and dubbed their own voices and instruments over it. The original version (sans Salvation Air Force) was eventually included as a bonus track on the CD of So Long Ago the Garden, but for many years, the SAF recording was the only full version of the classic song available to most audiences.  Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:18, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The Encyclopedia of Contemporary Christian Music sounds promising, which author and version? From the above context it's all notable sounding but I still don't see how they meet WP:Band, so I think they still fall below the bar because there are not enough WP:Reliable Sources so we can WP:Verify how notable they are.Haley 09:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

It's all moot since someone incorrectly assumed that Donnie copied the material from his web site listed above and edited it and placed it on Wikipedia. It was the other way around. It's been deleted as a copyright violation without discussion and without proof. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:27, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.