Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sam Cronin


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. There was a lot of participation from new users in this debate, and quite a few WP:ILIKEIT or WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS type arguments, which I discounted. However, no one rebutted the point made by Nfitz - namely, the subject appears to meet (weakly) the general notability guideline by having significant coverage in independent reliable sources. Given that, we don't even need to reach the issue of the sub-guidelines like WP:ATHLETE or essays like WP:FOOTYN. Xymmax So let it be written   So let it be done  17:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Sam Cronin
Discussion to run until at least 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Player is a new draftee who has not played a professional soccer game, and therefore fails WP:ATHLETE and WP:FOOTY/N --JonBroxton (talk) 00:44, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. Club Oranje T 10:49, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep.... Someone who is a SECOND OVERALL draft of a professional league doesnt get a page but no-name college basketball players who GASP arent professional do? What a hypocritical POS you all are.  Stop being WIKI NAZI's and keep tha page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.74.84 (talk) 20:46, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * KEEP.... you wouldn't sell your computer just because you left to take a piss. Cronin WILL play with TFC on some level.  Why create more work for people?  Besides, those of you who want to delete, do you even follow TFC or MLS for that matter?  If not, then your opinions are null and void.  This is information for people who care, not for those who just want their name to something.  Again, who is Sam Cronin?  2nd round draft pick in the MLS superdraft, drafted to TFC in 2009. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.70.34.106 (talk • contribs)


 * KEEP.... #2 ovrall draft pick, on a PRO team. that should count for something. wiki nazis need to get a life and find better things to do than delete articles because they don't like the sport... fuck the wiki nazis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.176.195 (talk • contribs)

It's seems you are! What idiots! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.26.76.214 (talk) 14:23, 8 February 2009 (UTC) Well then why does it state this in your notability rules "or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports, including college sports in the United States." I believe that is justification enough to leave it up. So bugger off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.244.161 (talk) 15:55, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you guys morrons?
 * KEEP There is no need to delete it. You're just being a wiki nazi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.244.161 (talk • contribs)
 * Delete per nom. Recreate if and when he plays in a fully-pro league match. Jogurney (talk) 00:41, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - I've gone back and added references which show Cronin finished as second runner-up for the Hermann Trophy. In my view, that is sufficient for the article to pass WP:N. Changed my vote to weak keep as well. Jogurney (talk) 22:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Johnny Au  (talk/contributions) 03:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't delete you fucking tools. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.134.199 (talk • contribs)
 * Delete fails WP:ATHLETE and WP:FOOTYN in that has not played yet in anything notable, recreate if and when-- Club Oranje T 10:49, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. GiantSnowman 12:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep He sined for Toronto FC and is now a pro — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.253.252.233 (talk • contribs)
 * Keep - per the media attention associated with being the second overall pick in a prominent American sports draft. matt91486 (talk) 17:11, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You deleted someone else's !vote, hopefully only by accident and not on purpose, when you posted the above. I've put it back in..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I think you know that I've been voting in these long enough to not delete someone else's intentionally.  When I type, sometimes I accidentally do the keystroke for deleting a line of text above me.  I almost always notice.  This time, I missed it.  My bad. matt91486 (talk) 23:22, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete Even if there are references, they do not refer to a notable acheivement. Sportsmen rarely acheive much without playing their sport at a notable level. Kevin McE (talk) 18:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - non-notable achievements for a non-notable footballer. --Angelo (talk) 10:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - per nom. Camw (talk) 11:35, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. Hang on - he was the number 2 pick in the 2009 MLS SuperDraft.  He easily meets WP:N with articles such as , . Nfitz (talk) 05:18, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. You fucking douche canoes, hypocritical cocksuckers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.134.199 (talk • contribs) 16:56, 8 February 2009
 * Thank you for your constructive comments which I found to be very much in keeping with your other contributions to Wikipedia. However, in this particular case they are very similar to the earlier comments you made in this discussion and therefore do not add additional value. Rest assured that your earlier comments will be considered with the due regard they deserve and if you do he does go on to make a notable appearance in a professional league we can easily reinstate your his page for you, restoring the attention and fame you crave so fervently -- Club Oranje T 10:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * if you are so interested in policing these pages, why don't you also stick a delete tag on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_DeMartin, who has yet to play a professional soccer match.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.26.68.216 (talk) 21:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep #2 pick in the draft, expected to play minutes in the first team Noonehasthisnameithink(talk) 06:46, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If and when he does, ask to get the page recreated. -- Club Oranje T 10:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not a question of if, but when, there's no point to delete article now, the season is starting soon Noonehasthisnameithink (talk) 19:02, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Curry_(basketball) and other college basketball wikis. None of them have ever played a pro game, Sam Cronin is much more of a pro than they are, yet they have their own pages.  Would be hipocritical to delete this and not delete every current college ball player. this comment apparently added by unsigned IP 99.247.62.34, inadvertently placed petween previous contributors user and talk page sigs
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument. Soccer has different standards of criteria from other sports. --JonBroxton (talk) 10:35, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep He has signed a contract and currently is with the team. draft picks in other sports often get pages even before they begin playing in the league(see Lebron James). Sam Cronin was actually a well known soccer player in college, finalist for awards. If soccer has different standards than other sports, can someone please provide the link to those standards and the standards of other sports? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.26.68.216 (talk) 13:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What most people here would be working off in terms of standards would be WikiProject_Football/Notability and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Notability I believe. Camw (talk) 14:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete Has not played, fails WP:ATHLETE. Don't edit my post. DeMoN  2009  20:56, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep I think that if NCAA competition qualifies you for other sports, then it should do so for soccer as well. At least for the few dozen players who are drafted each year it should count, I guess. American soccer is operating under a different system than pretty much every other country in the world, and I don't think that should be entirely disregarded. I think that a fair situation would be to allow articles for MLS Draftees to exist until the start of the next MLS season. If they are not part of a professional roster by then, it would be fine to delete them. I dunno, but I vote to keep. --

 Grant .  Alpaugh  21:00, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. With the MLS draft system, we have a bunch of very-qualified 22 and 23-year old's. Those that are drafted in the first round, and signed by an MLS team, all end up playing quite quickly, given the very small roster sizes in MLS - even more so now, with the elimination of the reserve division. It's hard to imagine that a number 2 draft isn't notable - look at this guy's achievements Hermann Trophy finalist, Lowes Senior Class Award, NSCAA First Team All-American, Soccer America First Team MVP, College Soccer News First Team All-American. Nfitz (talk) 22:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Why does this guy have a Wiki page even though he's less accomplished than Cronin in soccer and has only played amateur? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_DeMartin

Keep The guy was a top three draft pick for a professional soccer club, and a notable college player, who was considered one of the best in the league, and was nominated for several awards. This meets the benchmark for notability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.215.244 (talk) 21:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete, fails the accepted notability standards for association footballers. If/when he ever plays at professional level the article can easily be recreated. For the record, "I like it" and "other stuff exists" are not valid reasons for the article to be kept and should be discounted, keep it for a while and see if he becomes notable does not fit with WP:CRYSTAL or the concept that notability is not temporary, and vandalising the AfD will not prevent the proceess from reaching a conclusion. King of the  North   East  21:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete I think a fair system would be, when they play a pro game in MLS then the player can have an article. Until otherwise, delete! As for all these IP's with the same tone as each other, I am surprised no one has said it's one and the same person. That considering they all have the same language skills... which is poor! Govvy (talk) 21:57, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep He is not just an amature athlete who has been drafted to a professional team. He has already distinguished himself enough to have been amongst the most sought after prospects in American Soccer.

Keep At the highest level of amature competition he stood out enough to earn the following: 2005 - ACC All-Freshman Team, 2006 - NSCAA Second Team All-South, ACC All-Tournament, team MVP, 2007 - NSCAA Second Team All-American, Soccer America First Team MVP, NCAA College Cup All-Tournament, NSCAA First Team All-South, First Team All-ACC, ESPN the Magazine Academic All-American, team captain, 2008 - Hermann Trophy finalist, Lowes Senior Class Award, NSCAA First Team All-American, Soccer America First Team MVP, College Soccer News First Team All-American, NSCAA First Team All-South, First Team All-ACC, team captain, 2009 - Drafted 2nd overal in the MLS Superdraft JDGRPB (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:04, 8 February 2009 (UTC).


 * KEEPSam was signed to a professional soccer contract with Toronto FC of the MLS as well as taken in the top 5 for the 2009 MLS Super draft. Even if he never plays a professional game (which he will due to the nature of soccer), he is considered a professional because he goes to work every day and earns a paycheque from a professional organization. I'm pretty sure that makes him a professional. Plus, you wiki-douch-bags should not be arguing stupid samantics about someone who already meets the requirements of being a professional, when pages are getting hacked all kinds on this site. You should be embracing writers that are expanding the great encyclopedia that this is. There are lots of people from the province of Ontario that are looking for valid info on this kid and this is supposed to be a place people can rely on to get that info. Stop being douche-bags. Thanks [Razcle] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Razcle (talk • contribs) 22:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete, has not yet made an appearance for a team in a fully-professional league, therefore failing WP:ATHLETE. Claiming Cronin will play for TFC is crystal ballery. Recreate if and when he does make his debut. --Jimbo[online] 03:14, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's immaterial that he fails WP:Athlete, as he passes WP:N; though surely he has played at the highest amateur level - he was the runner-up for the Hermann Trophy which would make him the second-best amateur player in soccer. Also the clain that this his impending play for Toronto is crystal ballery is wrong.  This guideline says Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place.  This future event IS almost certain to take place (you name me the last top-3 draft MLS draft pick who was signed and didn't play in MLS). Nfitz (talk) 03:41, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify - he was 2nd runner up (3rd best). Also, I don't think it's appropriate to assume he will play in MLS. He could suffer a career-ending injury or just never pan out. I agree that it's very likely he will play in MLS, but until he does, he doesn't pass WP:ATHLETE. However, as I stated above, I think the article satisfies WP:N so the article should be kept. Jogurney (talk) 03:53, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Passes WP:FOOTYN Criteria number 4 by being named NSCAA First Team All-American, and by being a Hermann Trophy finalist. These are the highest achievements one can get at the National Amature level. EDIT: Additionally, He assisted on a goal yesterday in a game between Toronto FC and the US Mens U-20 team. JDGRPB (talk)  —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC).
 * Please don't !vote more than once -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:16, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep. He easily fails WP:ATHLETE as he has yet to play professionally, and (as already stated) simply signing for a pro team is NOT enough to confer notablilty as there is no guarantee he will ever play at this level (remember, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball). However, the NCAA awards he has won and the media coverage that come with them are just about enough for him to pass notability guidelines... just. Bettia   (bring on the trumpets!)  11:06, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 16:32, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Cronin made an appearance yesterday for Toronto FC, http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/news/team_news.jsp?ymd=20090209&content_id=216484&vkey=news_t280&fext=.jsp&team=t280 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.33.234.163 (talk) 16:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep There is enough about him to make him notable. Dream Focus (talk) 17:08, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.