Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sammy the Shunter


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Reframe as an article about the author Eileen Gibb. If this is not done, renomination is possible.  Sandstein  19:50, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Sammy the Shunter

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The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing General notability guideline and the more detailed Notability (fiction) requirement. WP:BEFORE did not reveal any significant English-language coverage on Gnews, Gbooks or Gscholar. No, this is not part of the TtTE franchise, but something even less known, seems like a rip-off by a non-notable author (so no valid merge/redirect targets I can think of). Which would make for a possible interesting story - but I can't find it written anywhere, so... WP:FANCRUFT? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:27, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  05:27, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  05:27, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  05:27, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment I did a Google Books search on this and there look like there be enough sources with WP:SIGCOV for it to pass GNG.  But it's hard to tell without being able to see the sources, and most of the books aren't there in full-text due to copyright restrictions.  I have, however, managed to electronically borrow Steel Wheels by A.F. Garnett, which is one of the sources that comes up, and that's definitely just a passing mention. YorkshireLad  ✿  (talk) 09:59, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak delete On further investigation of the sources, I found:
 * Modelling Railways in 0 Gauge, which is a passing mention;
 * Something from The New Yorker, which I can't access;
 * Something from The Bookseller (UK), likewise;
 * and catalogues and things sourced from Wikipedia, which clearly aren't of any use in establishing notability.
 * If both the New Yorker and Bookseller sources give significant coverage (potentially possible from the previews given by Google) we might have a GNG pass. On balance of probability I think that's unlikely.  YorkshireLad  ✿  (talk) 10:12, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: I may well plump on at least a weak keep; but is there a Women in Red case for shunting this to Eileen Gibb leaving a redirect and reworking into a BLP ? Djm-leighpark (talk) 10:16, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , Love this idea; have you found sources on her? <b style="color:#049">YorkshireLad</b> ✿  <b style="color:#052">(talk)</b> 14:57, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Nope. only thing I know about her currently is her association with Billy (the bus).I currently know absolutely nothing. It is a mystery to me what will or will not emerge.Djm-leighpark (talk) 16:10, 21 August 2020 (UTC) .... Okay I've found this which gives brief bio details.  Djm-leighpark (talk)
 * Yeah, I spotted that too; sadly doesn't appear to be a WP:RS, though, which would absolutely be needed if it were going to be a BLP instead. (It's a shame they didn't cite wherever they got their information from.)  As things stand though I'd be worried that a BLP on Gibb might be more likely to get deleted based on lack of sources about her rather than about her work.  <b style="color:#049">YorkshireLad</b>  ✿  <b style="color:#052">(talk)</b> 18:05, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete or merge into a new article about the author per the above suggestion - Fails to establish independent notability needed to pass WP:GNG. TTN (talk) 13:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge or Move to Eileen Gibb, as suggested by . AlgaeGraphix (talk) 14:26, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep or merge - Sammy is not "a rip-off by a non-notable author", but a contemporary character who dates from about the same time as Thomas. He appears in more books than Thomas, even if you count the later books by Christopher Awdry. He is fully deserving of his own article. A merge into Eileen Gibb might be acceptable over deletion. Mjroots (talk) 16:34, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep or otherwise merge per Mjroots. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:33, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment. If the author is notable and we end up with a new article about her that we could redirect/merge this to, it would be a win for everyone. Anyone would care to stub her bio? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 00:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Author section WP:BOLDly added to existing article and redirect created though have't rcat'd it. Anyone got a Kenneth Clark book ... not that one but an autobiography?  Djm-leighpark (talk) 03:57, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Djm-leighpark (talk) 03:57, 22 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Merge per WP:ATD and to find compromise. The author is likely notable and this could be a more encyclopedic way to cover this information. Jontesta (talk) 15:16, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment. Merge where? To the recently created redirect? That would be more of a split than merge since there is no target article. We will need better sources than a blog if this is to keep. I did check GScholar, News and Books and can't find anything about her outside simple bibliographical entry that she is the author of said books :( --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:42, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict)@ Please don't use the old Pluralis Majestatis as an attempt to include me your statement as I find it obnoxious and pompous. If you mean your interpretation of WikiPedia then say so.  The random blogger is seemingly a subject matter expert in the area per e.g.  or . Obvious is if someone is NOT considering writing a BLP article on the dude and is prepared to disclose an email address to please use "YOU CAN CONTACT ME DIRECTLY AT..." and see if he has any information he is willing to disclose on sources.  As the author has deceased BLP does not apply but we may well have a BLPO.  I'd nip down to Bognor to look at a possible book in the library but when I when to Sussex last week to retrieve a book to provide imagery evidence of the (obvious) substantial nature of a book source I lost my wallet, cred & debit cards and driving license ... and probably WSCC library cards for that matter — so a Coid-19 opportunity at Bognor or St. Pancras could easilty take me out of a BLP consideration.  On a more serious note we likely have WP:BASIC as published work is broad.  Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 07:28, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I have no idea why you chose to reply to me, but I'll ask you to mind WP:CIV and WP:NPA. Accusing others of being "obnoxious and pompous" is not very nice. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:36, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * @: You and the nom., and the one who tagged notability and immediately Prodded. Not nice.Djm-leighpark (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * PamD' actually beat me to the email idea while I'm having a rant. Thanks PamD. Djm-leighpark (talk) 07:29, 24 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment I've emailed the blogger Steve to ask if he can tell us what his sources were. He's still active on that blog. Please hang on for a few days to give us a chance to access this extra info. Pam  D  07:11, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * No hurry, and thank you for doing this. I just fear the answer will be "personal investigation/fromn the subject's family" and therefore not reliable :( --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:36, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Also worth noting if anyone has access to newspaper archives there's possibly stuff there. Ian Allan publishers, Kenneth Clark (auto)biographies are other longshots. Djm-leighpark (talk) 07:35, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Nothing in The Times that I could find. Mjroots (talk) 12:23, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I've had a reply: he sourced info from COPAC and CBI, Genealogy sites, and, as we feared, "Other details are from Gibbs' daughter." I wonder whether she managed to provide any of the same info for an obit in a local newspaper or similar? Pam  D  08:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , do we know were she died? That will point us towards local papers for an obituary. Mjroots (talk) 15:53, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The likely place of death was Hampshire, though Surrey is possible. . My initial thought were North Hampshire, but there were connections to Beaulieu area also.  May need to check for surname of "Holder" also.  I'm tempted to take a free 7-day to  or  but I need tp do that when I've got a batch of stuff to search including early Bergin stuff.  I did goto Bognor Library yesterday morning as they've got the Kenneth Clark autobiography (longshot) but the Librarian barred my entry & I had to be back in Chichester by 11:00am ... then tried three bookshops in Chichester but no luck.  Other thoughts are M-Gauge association; RH&DR but the're all longshots and I've elected so far not to try there at the moment.Djm-leighpark (talk) 18:28, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I've put in a request for assistance at the Hampshire WPs talk page. Mjroots (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC)


 * To make this an explicit !vote: on the assumption that sources are found, keep and move to Eileen Gibb, per . Previous !vote struck.  <b style="color:#049">YorkshireLad</b>  ✿  <b style="color:#052">(talk)</b> 15:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: The article as it stands it is a keep on its own merit, even without the Mettoy model being citable at present. If this article can be re-purposed to Eileen Gibb via a move and refactor that would be a sweet result and probably a better and beefier article and I'd support any consensus on that matter. Djm-leighpark (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I grew up with the StS books. Not as well known as TtTE but deserving of an entry.--Robert Fraser (talk) 09:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.