Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sarah Wrench


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.  MBisanz  talk 01:13, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Sarah Wrench

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The only biographical information given is speculation (that she was a witch). A reliable source (an Essex guide book) gives a more plausible explanation--that the cage is a mortsafe, used to protect bodies from grave snatching. No other information exists for this person. The entry only exists because an ignorant person made up a wild story about the cage being to stop a witch rising again, and another ignorant person (or perhaps the same one) wrote that down. It's the kind of story that attracts a certain kind of imagination, but it is about as far from being verifiable as it would be possible to get short of typing random syllables into Wikipedia articles.

On the source, I have already discussed its lack of reliability at the reliable source noticeboard. There is consensus that as a self-published source it is not reliable. TS 10:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep. Topic is notable and as evidenced by the nominator discussed (albeit briefly) in reliable sources. Notable as an item of folklore that is described in books on folklore while being essentially debunked in mainstream press.  Both theories as to the origin of the cage should be described in the article (to only mention one theory, as the article does at the moment, is clearly not NPOV).  The 'paranormal database' reference can be removed without substantially damaging the article, particularly as the site does not actually say what it is being used as a reference for. JulesH (talk) 10:50, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps retitling the article to Grave of Sarah Wrench in order to more accurately reflect what is interesting here would be appropriate? JulesH (talk) 10:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, what do we reliably know about the grave of Sarah Wrench? That it's mentioned very briefly, in a single sentence, in a local guide book of Essex.  This might justify a mention in Mersea Island, but hardly an article on its own. Perhaps a merge? --TS 10:59, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not just "a local guidebook", that's Pevsner, which is generally considered as the canonical guide to English architecture of interest. A mention in Pevsner is a strong indication of notability in an architectural sensse, let alone tales of witchcraft. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * And that there's a folklore story about the mortsafe being there because of its occupant being a witch. That's a verifiable piece of folklore, described in a professionally published book already mentioned on the page. JulesH (talk) 15:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete There doesn't seem to be any mention of poor Miss Wrench outside of the cited book about offbeat tourist attractions in the U.K., and it's obvious from the text of that book that the authors went to great pains to try to say something interesting about a mort safe.  Clues are "little is known"; "has led to a belief"; "it is claimed"; etc..  From what I gather, people who have to visit Mersea Island stop at West Mersea and don't go east from there.  Worth a mention in mortsafe or the stub article about East Mersea, but this is pretty pathetic as mysteries go. Mandsford (talk) 13:58, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - notability established the usual way. If tourist traps weren't notable, they wouldn't be traps. Wily D  14:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. The mortsafe continued to guard her grave after the purpose of such devices had been forgotten.  It may have been unusual in the location; if the decedent was a young girl, the family may have feared other kinds of tampering beside dissection.  As such, a local legend sprung up.  Both the grave and the legend are confirmed by sources.  The alternative explanation should be included. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 15:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notability isnt in question here. Archivey (talk) 15:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - Legends and even hoaxes can be notable (*cough*). This is a question of notability, and even as a legend it is the subject of secondary sources, thus passing WP:NOTABILITY.--Oakshade (talk) 17:06, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete A fifteen year old girl died and was buried in a protective device to prevent graverobbing. This does not establish notability, and the brief mention in a guidebook is also not sufficient. No 1848 sources have been presented to support the wild and unsourced claim by paranormalists that she was regarded as a witch, or that the mortsafe was installed by anyone other than grieving parents, much as such parents today might pay for an elaborate and expensive burial vault] even when the cemetary doesn't require one. Edison (talk) 17:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Seems notable enough to have generated a long-lived tale, and it's not our place to rule on the truth of it. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete unless additional sources can be found. The ones given are not sufficient to show anything notable. DGG (talk) 00:14, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.