Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Satellite Spies


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Also, I'll downgrade to semi-protection for now, but let me know if more is needed. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:48, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Satellite Spies

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This is an unusual situation: I am proposing deletion not because of the subject but because I think the article is a net negative - the work involved in maintaining it and protecting it from COI edit-warring outweighs its value.

"Satellite Spies" was a band formed in New Zealand in 1984. Two principals were Deane Sutherland and Mark Loveys. In 1987 they split up. Each of them claims that the other one left, so that each thinks that he owns the rights, and at times there have been two bands calling themselves Satellite Spies. Unbelievably, 25 years later they are still quarrelling about it, and this article has become the battleground. I became involved through answering an "adminhelp" to remove a defamatory statement after the article had been protected (on the wrong version, needless to say). While the article has been protected the argument, involving both of the principals and their supporters, has raged on the talk page. After a time I archived the talk page and asked them to shut up, but they have continued at interminable length. If you want to take the risk of your head exploding, you can read all the accusations and counter-accusations at Talk:Satellite Spies/Archive 1 and Talk:Satellite Spies.

The band scrapes past WP:BAND because of a song It must be Love from one of its incarnations, which reached the NZ Top 40 in 1999. However, as an IAR measure, I propose deletion, and salting the title. A reliably sourced and uncontentious version will be extremely short, something like User:JohnCD/Spies draft (Thanks to who produced a first shot at this). If it is ever unprotected the edit wars will resume; and when it is re-protected they will continue squabbling on the talk page. As the argument has been going on for 25 years, it is unlikely to end any time soon, but there is no reason for Wikipedia to provide a battleground. Delete and salt and let them squabble somewhere else. JohnCD (talk) 22:29, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions. JohnCD (talk) 22:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. JohnCD (talk) 22:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I can understand the nominator's frustration at this battleground, but I don't see this as a reason for deletion. I would favour a trimmed down version of the article such as Tomwsulcer's draft, kept protected, and vigorous patrolling of the talk page per WP:FORUM with blocking of offending parties.- gadfium 00:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

You cannot omit the single and album that put them on the map in 1985, "Destiny in Motion". I say delete it because it's all wrong. Glyn Tucker, Reaction Records NZ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.114.23 (talk) 02:15, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Speedy keep. AfD is not for cleanup, and Susceptibility to policy violations is an argument to avoid. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:33, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

The single, "Destiny in Motion" first charted 8/9/85 and was on the chart for 10 weeks. It peaked at no. 14 in the weeks of 6/10/85 and 13/10/85. Source RIANZ official Top 50 charts. (see RIANZ on Wikipedia) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.114.23 (talk) 05:30, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep If we can maintain articles on Mitt Romney and Israeli–Palestinian conflict we can manage this. They're evidently notable due to hit records: although there's not many sources, reviews etc could be added, or someone could dig out their back-issues of the NZ equivalent of Smash Hits magazine. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:02, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep per Colapeninsula and The Bushranger - SimonLyall (talk) 11:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

I have added a section called "Links to on-line resources" to the Talk page to assist in the creation of the reliably sourced and uncontentious version. Please be wary of the self published sites of the principals (which are pointed out in the list) and also be wary of muzic.net.nz which publishes material supplied by the individual bands. I agree with the concept of the reliably sourced and uncontentious version (so long as it is) and agree it should be locked down. Boatie62 (talk) 11:36, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Why not ask the person at Reaction Records who managed Satellite Spies' recording career from inception untill 1988 when the bulk of their recorded works were produced? It seems that simple. Come on guys, get this done, and get it right! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Birdie2 (talk • contribs) 09:32, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep in lock down. Not worth the effort. NealeFamily (talk) 09:05, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep and indefinitely semi-protect. Meets WP:BAND on the strength of "Destiny in Motion" (I have no recollection whatsoever of the other alleged hit) but all post-1987 material should be pruned to a note that since the band broke up in 1987 other bands of that name have been formed by one or other of the principals. Daveosaurus (talk) 08:08, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep, stubify, and protect. Given the article is contentious and the subject matter isn't highly notable, I think reducing the article to a non-contentious stub, and then fully protecting, is the best way forward. PhilKnight (talk) 11:47, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. There is some common ground in this article: this being; R.I.A.N.Z has registered two top twenty hit songs by this band; the group’s name is not in contention; they formed in the 1980's; they enjoyed hit song chartings in the 1980's and 1990's; there were only two major members; many musicians have passed through the many line-up changes; to keep positivity in this article; maybe just the basic facts including the two main members, their two major hits (Love & Destiny), many musicians have come and gone. Because the article is about Satellite Spies and not about a record company - I suggest leaving out any mention of corporate record organisations, whom only seem to provoke anger and negative comments. I suggest keeping article small and fully protected; e.g. when it formed, the two guy’s identities, their two big hits, etc. Keep it small and referenced from independent organisations: such as, R.I.A.N.Z, Muzic.net.nz, NZ Music Magazine, Rip it Up Magazine etc; all these institutions are well known in New Zealand and highly respected in all quarters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DunedinYoh (talk • contribs) 05:50, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment by nominator: as the outcome looks like being keep, I have replaced the article with a minimal, reasonably sourced and (I hope) uncontentious version much on the lines suggested above. The version at the time of filing this AfD can be seen here. I have omitted a stub template because the invitation "You can help Wikipedia by expanding it" is probably inappropriate here. JohnCD (talk) 20:24, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Note to closing admin: As protection was about to expire, I have made it indefinite for the moment and leave you to decide what to do. Full rather than semi-protection will probably be necessary for a time, as many of the combatants have enough edits to be autoconfirmed.


 * Indefinite full protection is a very unsatisfactory state; an alternative would be to block any of the involved parties who return to editing the article. There is a precedent in the Bogdanov affair, an earlier case where an external dispute was imported into Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee's remedy was that all involved parties were topic-banned from editing the article and that any new account which started editing it would be assumed involved. After a time that had to be extended to cover the article talk page. JohnCD (talk) 20:24, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. Yes - I agree; the immediate presiding post is probably stating the obvious & most peaceful solution to a negative atmosphere that has been generated & surrounds this article - to its detriment; Satellite Spies was indeed formed by Deane Sutherland (Alias Tommy Joy); Mark 'Clampitt' Loveys joined Sutherland from an Auckland band named Blasé`; Loveys brought with him Blasé` songs which eventually featured on the Satellite Spies album - Destiny in Motion. It is a pity that this article deletion seems to be the only way to halt a great workload for Wikipedia Administrators; The articles ship began to sink beneath the waves of reason following a retired record company executive (from a closed down corporate institution) whom waded into the mix and whom was never ever a part of the Satellite Spies band; following this, the whole matter then became unworkable. Regrettably, DELETION is probably wise. HOWEVER - if the Wikipedia Copyright Managers and Administrators are genius enough to remedy the article from destructive contributions and deliberate errors included to appease some parties they would have my admiration; they have my respect already - it just seems a huge mountain to scale. (The NZ Musician Magazine & Muzic.net.nz are the only New Zealand Based Music Magazine & New Zealand Music Encyclopaedia Publications we have as New Zealanders for our references for verifiable detailed information). They are much respected. Al fine.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by DunedinYoh (talk • contribs) 06:06, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.