Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sayanim (Mossad)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Given a generally experienced editor set, it was surprisingly difficult to make out the actual policy reasoning behind each individual's participation.

That said, there was clear consensus that this should not be kept, most principally on sourcing grounds (there was some consideration on hoax standards, though obviously coverage of a hoax could also exist).

It was a little less clear whether it should be redirected, as we had reasoning for both a merge and a redirect, and the delete advocates didn't indicate specific opposition to redirection. Ultimately, more from numbers I currently have not redirected. However, should an editor now want to redirect it, this AfD would not indicate a consensus against doing so. Nosebagbear (talk) 11:43, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Sayanim (Mossad)

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Antisemitic conspiracy. No reliable sources seem to back this up. See a previous AfD at Articles_for_deletion/Sayanim (which eventually led to Sayanim being salted) for more. None of the sources in the article demonstrate the existence of this, and it was created by someone who has socked previously. --IWI (talk) 10:04, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. --IWI (talk) 10:04, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. --IWI (talk) 10:04, 18 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom, the best this page could ever be is WP:FRINGE and right now it's just an antisemitic dual loyalty WP:SYNTH. - Astrophobe  (talk) 14:00, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep The concept of a "sayan" (plural "sayanim") is covered by a series of reliable and verifiable sources from three continents covering the concept that are already included in the article; the nominator's claims that "No reliable sources seem to back this up" and that "None of the sources in the article demonstrate the existence of this" are demonstrably false based on even the most casual perusal of the sources in the article. And there are dozens of other sources about Sayanim that came up in newspapers, magazines and books on the topic of the Mossad, all of which demonstrate the independent notability of the concept. Anything that any Jew or the State of Israel does is capable of being deemed an "Antisemitic conspiracy", which does not make an article subject to deletion. The claims of WP:SYNTH and WP:FRINGE are unsupported by the actual articles used as references. Alansohn (talk) 18:24, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm unable to find mentions of the word in most of the sources, and those that do only mention it once. And yes, the idea that Mossad are spying on the world using the Jewish diaspora (as this article implies) is an antisemitic conspiracy theory (of the dual loyalty and world domination kind) and is not something we should allow to be promoted on Wikipedia. A search of the word brings up an array of neo-nazi/antisemitic websites and articles. I also noted the #sayanim on Twitter, which also appears to be one used by antisemites. --IWI (talk) 21:40, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The claim that it's an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory is based on your original research. You've offered no sources to rebut the claim that this is a real technique used by the Mossad. Even if it did not exist in the real world, there are articles for other conspiracy theories, such as Paul is dead (he still isn't), Black helicopter, Moon landing conspiracy theories and even Kosher tax conspiracy theory ("an antisemitic conspiracy theory" that frequently appears in "an array of neo-nazi/antisemitic websites and articles"). The standard -- real or conspiracy theory -- is coverage in reliable and verifiable sources, and that standard is met, regardless of your fringe theories. Alansohn (talk) 01:59, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I disagree. There is no in depth coverage on this topic at all. One of the sources is completely unrelated to this. Look at the sources again; they briefly mention the concept - not notable. And if it is, we should definitely not be saying things such as that they conduct vast operations worldwide and presenting that as fact. It's not original research; these are verifiable types of antisemitic conspiracy theories, that Jewish people are trying to dominate the world and spy on us with the Jewish diaspora. --IWI (talk) 08:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Strong delete This is just antisemitic bunk. The creator of the article should be banned from Wikipedia for fanning the flames of bigotry and hate and trying to get Jews killed. These lies have real world consequences and we need to stop them.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge with Mossad and/or Asset (intelligence). The concept of a "sayan" may exist, but it isn't especially notable or worthy of its own page, as per WP:NOPAGE. Some of the contents of this article is also bordering on fringe issues. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 04:29, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Mossad where the content already exists. There's not enough material for a self-standing article. Im The IP  (talk) 19:19, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete this antisemeitic nonsense --Steamboat2020 (talk) 02:49, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.