Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scheiße

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was ambiguous.

I count 11 clear "delete" votes, 13 "keep" votes (though 6 were discounted - 4 anon, one very new user and one troll), 5 "transwiki" votes and one unclear. Many of the delete votes came before the rewrite. Most of the transwiki votes came after the rewrite.

While there is a plurality of votes for deletion, there is not the overwhelming majority necessary for straight deletion. At the same time, the sum of the delete and transwiki votes indicate a reasonably clear concensus that this is not an encyclopedia article. Noting that transwiki does not destroy history and therefore does not require the overwhelming concensus that deletion does, I am going to be bold and add this to the Transwiki queue. Rossami (talk) 04:02, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Scheiße
Goofy attempt at a dicdef. Do not transwiki. Do not collect $100. Just get lost. -- Hoary 05:10, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)


 * Delete, dicdef. Move to wiktionary has already been requested for de:Scheiße. --MarkSweep 06:36, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. foreign dic def. Mgm|(talk) 09:10, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep could develop into something --219.77.78.170 11:49, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC) #
 * User: (talk &bull; contribs) just gave us Hamburger of Truth and Votes for deletion/Hamburger of Truth. Uncle G 12:41, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)
 * Keep needs work and can be something very good. --Lang 11:59, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC) (219.77.78.170 11:50, 2005 Feb 14 according to history Uncle G 12:41, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC))
 * Keep I dont think it is nice to tell people to get lost --Hoary--User:Rlandmann 12:09, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC) (219.77.78.170 11:55, 2005 Feb 14 according to history Uncle G 12:41, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC))
 * Well, 219.77.78.170, "get lost" was addressed to the article, not to the author, Cooter08865 (contributor to Kyle Busch and Mohonk mountain). -- Hoary 12:57, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)


 * Bad dictionary definition. Delete. Uncle G 12:41, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)
 * Keep I am just trying to make a helpful contribution.-- Hoary-your negative comments are certainly not constructive, and actually very immature. If you'd like to offer constructive criticism, by all means be my guest.Cooter088652005 Feb 14 (UTC) (12.20.200.207 14:29, 2005 Feb 14 according to history Uncle G 16:29, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC))
 * I'm not sure what's going on in this vote, but this article is a foreign dicdef and should be deleted imho. Radiant! 18:09, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * delete not usable by wikipedia. But hopefully avoid terms like "get lost" in VfD nominations. Kappa 19:14, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - a weird discussion but not worth keeping - there's nothing there of note! Brookie 19:37, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as foreign dicdef. Avoid use of 'get lost' in future VfD nominations. --TenOfAllTrades | Talk 20:30, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, foreign dicef, get lost (NOT directed at you, TenOfAllTrades :) Wyss 21:07, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Pity. I mostly write biochemistry articles, and I never seem to get any good flames. :) TenOfAllTrades | Talk 02:42, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Isn't English (and all living languages) constantly evolving? The article is pretty sloppy, but maybe this fellow has a point. Clean it up! What's this about getting lost?Persuader 5:32, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes. However, VfD helps us find a consensus on whether or not an article is encyclopedic (rather than, say, a dictionary definition). Wyss 02:04, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * OK you guys can delete this if it makes you feel better. I admit, it was a good idea after 5 beers and a whiskey, but maybe not now. Just don't come crying to me when all your English speaking friends start using the word Scheiße. It's starting to catch on, weather you like it or not is irrelevant! And please never tell Cooter to get lost because he starts frothing at the mouth while his face turns beet red. Ha!Cooter08865
 * Hey Cooter08865, I was wondering, why are you leaving personal attacks on my talk page? Wyss 23:19, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Hey Wyss, that is indeed a pretty serious allegation! Are you 100% positive it was me? I harbor no ill will towards you. What would I have to gain?
 * Cooter08865, you signed it and I subsequently had a look at your (limited) contribution history. Meanwhile the page history of my talk page clearly shows that after reading the above, you went back and deleted your personal attack. Now you deny having made it. Readers are invited to visit my talk page and see your trail for themselves, drawing their own conclusions. I'll assume this was all due to the inexperience of a new WP user who may have misunderstood both the role and function of VfD and the Speedy Delete process, misinterpreted my posts and over-reacted emotionally. Wyss 01:01, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * In my opinion you really needs to lighten up. And for your information Mr. Overly Seriousness, I intend to contribute in the future with plenty of new exciting informative articles. So this time I&#8217;ll overlook your condescending/ holier than though &#8220;(limited) contribution history&#8221; snap. Cooter08865
 * Are you saying you plan on "contributing" more drunken vandalism? Based on the evidence I've seen so far, although you appeared to get off to an ok start with two contributions relating to geography and car racing, right now you're here to blow off personal steam and generally cause trouble. By the way, personal attacks and the use of sockpuppets are both violations of WP policy. (Holier than thou and Mr Overly Seriousness may seem like innocently flippant remarks, but onscreen they look like, and amount to, personal attacks never mind the plainly rude attack you put on my talk page and your contribution history is limited) Wyss 09:34, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * ha..."drunken vandalism" is a compliment, so I must say thank you Good Sir! Who wouldn't like to sack and plunder Rome with all it's pomp and riches? But no.....it wasn't vandalism. Just a silly idea that popped in my head. Would you really like to see what Vandalism is?Cooter08865
 * Actually some of my friends use that word sometimes, and so do I. But I'd look it up in a dictionary if I had too, not an encyclopedia. Kappa 22:57, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Then why are other maledictions and slang words in wikipedia? I would think Scheiße has some sort of  new linguistic and cultural importance to the American English language. Cooter08865
 * Many are dicdefs that simply haven't been VfD'd (yet). In principle, an article should be an article, with encyclopedic content. For me, discussion of the word shit is a rather straightforward process of definition and etymology, which isn't the role of an encyclopedia. Creating an article space for its German equivalent is even less so, which is why I voted to delete it. The get lost commentary is only an echo of exasperation over the apparent glee some users (often new ones) seem to derive from typing colourful and provocative content for its own sake into WP, and shouldn't be taken too seriously. Wyss 01:24, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Well if that's how you feel why don't you begin VfDing shit, fuck, crap, poop, piss? Stick with your convictions my friend and go on your clean up crusade immediately! Cooter08865
 * By the way, why did you lie about having left that personal attack on my talk page? Wyss 03:47, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Now you are calling me a liar? Pretty soon you'll be calling me Satan himself! If I wanted this kind of verbal abuse I'd move into my girlfriends mothers house! Oh the horror Cooter08865
 * It's all shown here, Cooter08865. -- Hoary 05:11, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC) (Note that the link only shows the latest history, and I've since reverted Cooter08865's vandalism myself) Wyss 08:50, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Hi Hoary, thanks for reverting my wretched vandalism. Thanks much! Cooter08865
 * Hmm. It seems that comment, while attributed to User:Cooter08865, was actually added by User:Persuader. Either they're the same person, or Persuader is trying to start trouble.   &mdash; Gwalla | Talk 07:39, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Looks like the same person to me, User:Persuader's only edits are to this article and talk page. Wyss 08:27, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Wyss I think it's a moot point by now if it was me or not. Stop saber rattling and whining please. And for God sakes lighten up. My little drunken post on scheisse started out as a joke, but with the diligent contributions by Megan1967 and Capitalistroadster it clearly blossomed into something beautiful.
 * Delete. Unencyclopedic, non-English dictdef.   &mdash; Gwalla | Talk 01:45, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, borderline acceptability for me. Needs cleanup and expansion. Megan1967 02:20, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Wikipedia is not a German-English dictionary. JoaoRicardo 03:04, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) Transwiki to Wiktionary. JoaoRicardo 10:36, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete unencyclopedic. CDC   (talk)  03:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Do we have a Don't post while drunk? --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 06:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment, I've expanded it since VfD nomination. Megan1967 06:29, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment - Is this drunken prank truly worth rescuing? (rhetorical question...) Wyss 08:27, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment, Oktoberfest already? Certainly the word exists. It's been a challenge to rescue articles that look like hopelessly lost causes, even if the end results are less than successful. Megan1967 09:09, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Heh heh. Rescuing a VfD can be interesting and rewarding, for sure. I'm only saying this word has little potential to go beyond a foreign dicdef (and the story about the Austrian policeman and his trial shows you've really tried, but the incident was trivial and not encyclopedic IMO). Wyss 09:29, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - Even a joke says that it is the dictionaries schoolkids go to look for potential swearwords, not the encyclopedias :-) - Skysmith 09:19, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Then why did I just have to put a on spew ? Uncle G 11:40, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)
 * Keep. I have further cleaned up the article. The word shyster is derived from the word and was developed on the Australian goldfields. It then spread around the world losing its obscene meaning - for example Groucho and Chico Marx had a NBC radio program called Beagle, Shyster & Beagle which became Flywheel, Shyster & Flywheel. Thanks to Megan1967 for her work on the article too.Capitalistroadster 10:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. You surprise me. The OED makes it clear that the word shyster developed independently (i) in the US to mean something like a crooked lawyer (whence the Marx brothers' use) and (ii) in Australia, from Scheisser. If this is so, the German word had no influence on the Marxist use. But even if it had influenced it, so what? Should W'pedia have articles on German words that were adapted into English words? I hadn't thought that it was an English-language dictionary, let alone a German-English dictionary, but maybe I've missed something. -- Hoary 13:11, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm flippin' and floppin' here and I'm sorry. Looks like Hoary's right, the shyster etymology applies to a different form. The new version had sufficient cultural interest for me to interpret it as encyclopedic, but without that twist, it's back to a foreign dicdef. Delete it, and that's prolly my last word on this topic. Wyss 13:27, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. Even with the expansion, it is still an ethimological dictionary entry, not an encyclopedia entry. Sorry, but I will keep my vote. JoaoRicardo 23:49, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Why do you want to delete this dictionary entry and not send it to wiktionary, where it would fill in a red link? Kappa 00:00, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I thought Wiktionary was not an etymological dictionary. At least I haven't found etymologies for words I have looked up there. Would they accept such a long entry? JoaoRicardo 04:12, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh my goodness yes, Wiktionary is an etymological dictionary. Have a look at Main_Page.  The reason that you haven't found etymologies is that they simply haven't been written, not that they aren't allowed.  Wiktionary is also a vastly incomplete dictionary, not least because lots of people who want to write articles about words seem to aim for the dictionary and miss, and hit the encyclopaedia instead. Uncle G 10:12, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC)
 * Keep, another brilliant save by a worthy try by Capitalistroadster, after an early push by Megan1967. Wyss 11:09, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep I'd like to thank Megan1967 andCapitalistroadster for turning my little blurb on Scheiße into a real article. Now it's definitely, without question a strong keep! Cooter08865
 * Transwiki or keep (change of vote). Note that wiktionary takes foreign dicdefs, it takes "all words in all languages" . Kappa 15:20, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * You won't hear from me in a while guys. I have work to do, and if they see me on this site long enough I run the risk of getting fired. Which isn't so bad when you think about it, but I also run the risk of receiving a docked bonus. For being naughty and not concentrating solely on work related material. I like to argue and debate especially when being challenged. So I'll be back in full force! -Cooter08865 has left the building-
 * I have added further to the article explaining further the derivation of shyster. I based my statement earlier that the word shyster had originated in Australia from the German word based on prior knowledge as an Australian and the American Heritage derivation (cited as a reference in the article). Further research based on Hoary's concerns led me to work done by professor Gerald Cohen that the word had originated in the New York prison system in the 1840's and was based on "scheiße". The first citation of the word was in 1843 in a publication called The Subterreanean by Mike Walsh based on a conversation with Cornelius Terhune, a lawyer in New York who told Walsh that the word derived from the German for shit. There are alternative derivations for the word shyster including Shylock, a Gaelic word siostair meaning barrator or person who pursues litigation groundlessly and Scheuster who was supposedly a lawyer practising at the time.  The lawyer version was the most common derivation. However, Professor Cohen has been through the law lists of New York and can find no record of such a lawyer practising at that time meaning shyster is now the most likely derivation. I have mentioned the alternative derivations in the article but I consider that this dispute indicates that it is worthwhile keeping the word. No change in vote. Capitalistroadster 17:40, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * This American Heritage article contains the best outline of Professor Cohen's research. Just scroll down a bit.
 * I have had a look at the OED citations. The earliest citation there is from 1844 from the "Tombs" which supports the research in the article that the word shyster in its shady lawyer sense came from there. Capitalistroadster 09:39, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep &mdash; RJH 20:07, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Excellent expansion but it is still a discussion about the meaning, origins and usage of a word. To me, that makes it a really good dictionary entry - but not an encyclopedia article.  Transwiki.   Rossami (talk) 03:55, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Concur. Transwiki. Radiant! 11:47, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep &mdash; Dewet 09:39, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. We have an article on shit and other English-language profanities. There is much more material here than in the average dicdef. &mdash; Trilobite (Talk) 15:32, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, looks great now. - Mustafaa 02:54, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Definition + usage + etymology, however prolific, = transwiktionary. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 23:03, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * keep Yuckfoo 03:37, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * 'keep'. [maestro] 06:52, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.