Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sean Bennett (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete as failing verifiability due to lack of reliable sources which can be used to verify all of these competitions the article subject is alleged to have done well in. While it's great that so many people"know" he has done well in so many different competitions, Wikipedia requires sources backing up these claims. So far, no one has provided them, instead just stating that they "know" he has won (or done really well or played something really difficult). This closure is not prejudicial, and the article may be created again in the future IF reliable sources can be found supporting all of the claims made here. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:57, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Sean Bennett
AfDs for this article: 
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

No really reliable sources, mostly YouTube and trivial mentions. Seems to fail WP:MUSIC. (I just hate it, too, when people put an article in a category, sub-category, and sub-sub-category.) Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 16:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment Previously deleted in 2005. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 16:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. Half the references are to Bennett's own web pages, and his teaching and research credentials were all work as a graduate student, while the phrasing in the article makes it seem as though he were a prominent professor. BeIsKr (talk) 16:48, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - passes Wikipedia:Notability (music) criteria # 5 (two albums released on TheOrchard / Digital label and available throughout music sites for sale) and #9 (Chopin Competition prize verifiable in a google search on the Kosciuszko foundation web archive), and possibly #1 (Chronicle article cited, CNN article cited). I seem to remember the Download.com citation used to check out too (passing #2), I was dubious at first about this when the claim was made -- seems the site possibly reorganized so may be useful to strike this claim. Numerous links from other wikipedia pages to the article. It should be noted that the music notability criteria have changed since 2005. If you have problems with the other parts or phrasing or categories, change them to be more neutral in tone! It is possibly worth noting that he has a very large following on youtube with hundreds of thousands of video views. It seems that unless you misconstrue the notability guidelines that this passes. 71.178.122.46 (talk) 17:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Sourced notable criteria to address reasonable concerns of TenPoundHammer. Check the visit statistics on article page to verify frequent outside viewings of page by fans. Seems BeIsKr may have some personal axe to grind regarding Bennett, his comments on the discussion page seem to be more concerned about tone (which are reasonable), but not notability under Wikipedia Music guidelines. 71.178.122.46 (talk) 18:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * How is the label notable? How is the award notable? Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 20:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment My concerns about tone were just to emphasize that it's a vanity page, seeking to make non-notable accomplishments appear notable. The same issue was raised in the previous deletion discussion.  Also, it's interesting that there are two administrators arguing for deletion and one anonymous IP arguing for keeping. BeIsKr (talk) 17:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

TheOrchard is the biggest music distributor online, but also an Indy label, and works with both independent and mainstream label artists. The individual sites have to accept the artist into their library, the more sites the artist is accepted to, the more important the artist is to the TheOrchard catalogue and the Digital Label. The Chopin Competition is one of the most respected American piano competitions: here are a few links about it: http://www.thekf.org/MUChopin.html, included Carnegie Hall: http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_13211.html?selecteddate=04052009, http://www.musicianguide.com/biographies/1608003145/Murray-Perahia.html. The other contests mentioned on the page now include the Kingsville, which is one of the biggest international competitions in the US for all instruments for the the under 24 age category (I believe Bennett won prizes in it in 1995 and 1996). The Richardson is a national competition held in Lansing, MI annually that rotates through instruments. The Silver Lake is a now defunct International Piano competition that was held in Silver Lake, WI. 71.178.122.46 (talk) 20:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC) It should be noted the page for Frederic Chiu, Elizabeth Borowsky, and Moses Hogan all cite the Chopin Competition in their wikipedia articles as notable accomplishments. Ruslan Sviridov mentions the Kingsville competition in his entry. All have less page views per month than Bennett. 71.178.122.46 (talk) 20:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The Orchard (music label) has been discussed before; it's not actually a label, but a distributor that works with independent artists. Near as my research last time they came up turned out, you can pay them to distribute your stuff - that does not a notable label make. I don't see this subject as notable at present, without substantial third-party independent referencing. (If that turns up, I'd be glad to reconsider.) Delete Tony Fox (arf!) 20:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment for Tony Fox: the awards now have substantive independent citation on the article page. It seems that if the Bennett article were to go, then hundreds, perhaps thousands of classical pianist articles need to get deleted too, as a fan his name stands out in the top group of a young generation of recording pianists in my mind. Please watch his youtube videos and read some of the comments if you don't believe he is noteworthy before voting to delete this article. Additionally, shouldn't there be some metric for evaluating page statistics in the keep/delete discussion? If it is getting visited by a lot of people every day, doesn't that mean something? 71.178.122.46 (talk) 21:12, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:02, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Here are some of the issues that I see with the above. First, if one looks at the sources, one finds that he did not actually *win* any of the competitions mentioned; he receives a special mention in the Chopin competition, and was a finalist in the other. I admit to not being versed in classical musical competitions, so I can't say whether the competitions mentioned are at a high level. To quote the relevant guideline: "Has won or placed in a major music competition." Whether finalist counts as placing is up to interpretation, but for myself, my opinion is that it doesn't - others may disagree, and that's fine, because the deletion discussion is all about one's opinions. Page views are not a notability gauge, and YouTube videos - presumably posted by the artist - are not reliable independent sources. If this artist has made an impression on the industry such that he has become notable, then we need to see reliable sources discussing it - not his own contributions. Tony Fox (arf!) 02:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 08:37, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete per Tony Fox. -- Klein zach  09:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep per 71.178.122.46. --63.3.1.2 (talk) 15:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and Tony Fox. Although he may be a gifted pianist, he has not achieved the notability required for an article. Paying a studio to release your work is not the same as being independantly recorded. Themfromspace (talk) 18:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete (see my comments above). BeIsKr (talk) 19:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment you are aware that you already voted delete in this AfD? Themfromspace (talk) 03:15, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment yeah, but I've never been in an AfD discussion before, so it seemed like everything above was being disregarded and a revote was requested. Sorry if I misunderstood.  BeIsKr (talk) 03:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per BeIsKr and Tony Fox. Back in January, I tagged the article as lacking "Information about concerts and non-download releases, current academic career" - it is still not there. The article has been fraught with problems concerning the choice of sources (forum postings, YouTube videos, Facebook groups ...) and references not fully supporting the statements that they were cited for. Regards, HaeB (talk) 16:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

and he is a child prodigy, apparently. says who? self proclaimed, nothing more. 58.165.60.208 (talk) 14:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC) It's not personal 58.165.60.208 (talk) 14:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete He is also gay ~ curiously, that has never been mentioned on the page. Oh yeah, he is also a ceo. of bennett arbitrage wtf!? it looks totally bogus to me58.165.60.208 (talk) 14:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)delete this sucker 58.165.60.208 (talk) 14:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * weak keep as gayness is not a reason for deletion... but should probably remove the stuff thats sourced to youtube as thats unreliable... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.251.171.248 (talk) 16:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep I think people here are missing the importance and difficulty of Rachmaninov's Third Concerto in the piano literature and the noteworthiness of this guy playing this concerto at 14. He was one of the youngest in the world to do so (the only person younger that I know of was Sgouros), and it was noteworthy enough for a private benefactor to buy him a concert grand Steinway and for him to win all sorts of awards from Steinway for it (and all those facts are available on the cited sources all over the web). As a pianist, I myself heard him do this as a teenager and knew he won prizes in the Silver Lake International Piano Competition playing it (4th and 1st in 95 and 96) and in the Kingsville International Competition (3rd) (check with those organizations yourself if you don't believe me) because those were the important international competitions for young musicians and I myself aspired to enter them so followed who was winning. 63.70.170.34 (talk) 20:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.